Who ranks higher Felix Trinidad or Joe Calzaghe. ATG ranks.

Joe doesn't rate anywhere as an all time great. There wasn't any meat left on any of the champions he beat. The best win on his resume was a disputed decision against a grandfather with grey hair on his stones.

 

Robinson as a WW would have knocked Joe out. Ray's semi ******ed little brother would only have lost a SD to Joe and even then it is only because of the criminally corrupt judging in Great Britain.

 

True.

Calzaghe is better than Ray Robinson.

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=379244&cat=boxer

 

Calzaghe seems to be so often either very overrated or very underrated (or people are just overly harsh in their criticism).

He was a very good fighter, even if Tito ranks higher. Joe's resume is weak for the fighters he's often compared to, but it's not like his record is padded to a Brian Nielsen level. He has some decent names in there. He admittedly had little interest in fighting a prime Jones, but he shouldn't be blamed for the Hopkins fight not happening in 2002/03, it was Hopkins who suddenly increased his monetary demands, probably because he was unhappy with how much Don King was going to take.

 

Watch Tito vs Whitaker. Then watch Jones vs Calzaghe. Then watch Jones vs Tarver II. Then watch Jones vs Glen Johnson. Then watch Jones vs Danny Green. Then watch Jones vs Tito Trinidad.

Whitaker was years past his best vs Tito, Jones was utterly, utterly shot to ****.

The 1993 ww Pea does indeed outbox and outclass Trinidad, but the 1999 version still had the chin and a semblance of the old skills in order to compete hard for 12 competitive rounds, take some big punches, give some big punches, and avoid flat-out humiliation like Jones suffered in the farce of a fight vs Calzaghe.

Before facing Tito, Whitaker had looked solid vs Oscar, Hurtado and in the Rivera rematch, and in the NC Pestryaev bout. He was obviously well past-prime, but he was not getting dominated and knocked cold like Jones was.


And how do you work out that a 43 year old Hopkins is better than a prime Winky Wright, when that version of Hopkins barely squeaked past a bloated 170lbs version of Winky? :huh


There is not a great deal between the best wins of Tito and Calzaghe (although I still prefer Tito's), but (again) the facts remains that:

- Tito has the deeper, stronger resume

- Tito won world titles in more weight classes

And IMO, the ww/lmw Tito was a more effective fighter than Calzaghe. He was one of the most devastating offensive forces of modern times, and he only lost to great boxers who were far better than anyone Calzaghe ever fought, and in two of those fights Tito was outwith his optimum fighting weight range (prime Oscar, prime Winky, prime B-Hop).

 

Calzaghe aint in the legendary status. Sorry.

I cant put him in the same breath of legends of the sport like Trinidad, Hopkins, Chavez, Whitaker, Hagler, SRL etc etc

 

To be honest no matter what you say it cannot be taken seriously as your blatant hatred of calzaghe is evident in the fact that you had hopkins beating calzaghe by four points in a fight calzaghe clearly won.

 

You value workrate, I value quality punching. You value windmilling your arms around ineffectively, I value effective punches landed. It's the criteria I used when scoring for Kotelnik over Alexander, and it's the same criteria I used when scoring Hopkins over Calzaghe. My scoring criteria is superior to yours. You are the one who does not grasp how boxing should be scored. :good

 

Do you also value Ring IQ?

Popkins you have had some great threads on here , with very deep knowledge , but if you can honestly say that Tito had a better boxing brain than JC , then I would be disappointed, and for me that has to be the highest scoring point required to measure their rankings.

Look through Tito's career , in his one and only true test at 147 he got an absolute gift against Oscar.

154 takes on two very green Olympians , who combined have less fights than him.

160 - Joppy ? - come on , the man is possibly one of the worst middle champions ever.

Then absolutely schooled , doesnt win a round against Hopkins.

Then his last two wins of his career were against face first never beens.

In his last two fights at the ages of 32 and 35 respectively he barely wins a round against names that werent at their primes.

Also the weight class area , do the math , its easier to move up in 6 / 8 lbs for the 147 fighter.

JC would have to move from 175 to 200lbs for his next division.

 

Ring IQ is one facet of a fighter's in-ring game, and the in-ring game itself is only one facet of a fighter's overall greatness, so no, that is not my main concern when making this decision, not even close to it in fact.

But FYI, Tito Trinidad was outsmarted by three fighters better than anyone Joe Calzaghe ever faced. Prime ODLH at 147, prime Winky and prime B-Hop at 160 were all considerably better than anyone Calzaghe was ever in the ring with, so it is totally unfair to compare the tests faced by his ring IQ with those faced by Tito.

The one time that Calzaghe was truly tested by a HOF-calibre opponent he was outclassed by B-Hop, despite B-Hop's obvious lack of stamina making it much closer than it would have been had the B-Hop who beat Tito faced Joe C.

And I don't agree with your last comment either. The difference between a welterweight and a middleweight is much more than the difference between a supermiddle and a lightheavy. Tito's weight-jumping was superior, as was his resume, as was his ability, IMHO.

 

Sorry Popkins , Im not here to fight but the above is just really wrong.

Ring IQ is NOT a major factor when deciding the qualities of a fighter???

So who is the better fighter Sandy Saddler or Willie Pepp?

Calzaghe was definately not outclassed by Hopkins , and if we are going down that route look up any of Frank Warrens articles when Hopkins clearly pulled out of a fight with Joe when he was in his prime . Warren still says this now even after the fallout with Joe.

Tito also had his ass handed to him not once , but twice and by a man also fighting outside of his weight class for the first time.

Lastly the weight , I said the highest Joe could go was 175 as the next step up would be to 200lbs , the math doesnt lie .

Title fights

Tito - 147 - 158.5 = 11.5 lbs

Joe - 168 - 175 = 7lbs

For Joe to fight at cruiser 200lbs he would have to put on 25 lbs , meaning a massive plus of over 20lbs in Joes favour , but that would mean a body mass index increas of over 15%. Not going to Happen.

Tito been outclassed and stopped at the same level where Joe was undefeated.

 

Trinidad's opposition was frequently mediocre, but yeah Calzaghe manages to be even worse and made less effort to get big fights.

Tito once he moved up to 154 was even more overhyped by his fans than Joe was a few years ago though imo.

 

Tito by far.

 

No, it isn't. It's all correct.

Who said that? :huh

Not me. I said it is one facet of a fighter's in-ring game, and it is. It is one facet of the in-ring game, same as power, same as speed, same as defensive ability, same as mental strength, etc etc etc. It is a major factor with regard to a fighter's ability, and once you have decided on ability you have then to consider other factors when the decision at hand is regarding overall p4p all-time career greatness, such as resume (much more important than ring IQ and even more important than ability as a whole), weight-jumping, dominance, etc.

Willie 'Pepp'?

I would say Willie Pep is both a greater fighter and a better fighter than Sandy Saddler.

He is greater (which is the question here) because his career accomplishments were superior AND he had greater ability.

He is better (which is not the whole question here) because he had better ability, and I base that on his superior boxing skills, superior defence, AND his superior ring IQ.

Hopkins was clearly hampered in that fight by being 43 and having the natural accompanying stamina difficulties. He proved his skills and technique were superior to Calzaghe's in the spurts that he was able to open up.

What does any of this have to do with their respective abilities? :huh This is irrelevant. (the answer may lie with the cut that Don King wanted of Hopkins's purse btw)

Both times by a better fighter than anyone Joe Calzaghe ever shared a ring with. If Joe C had ever bothered to move up and fight prime RJJ at 175, he'd have got tooled just as easily... but he didn't.

Nonsense!


A 168lbs fighter moving to 175lbs is nowhere near the same as a 147lbs moving to 160lbs. I have no idea how you can think so. Aside from the simple arithmetic of it (7lbs as compared to 13lbs), of course the higher you go up in weight the less poundage matters, that's a generally accepted fact by anyone who knows boxing. That's why 210lbs heavyweights regularly face 230lbs heavyweights and no-one bats an eyelid, whereas it is virtually unheard of for 106lbs fighters to end up fighting as high as 126lbs. :deal

 

Nuff said