Ali (1 thru 61; Hunsaker thru Berbick)

Off the videotape, I scored Ali the winner over Berbick 97-93. (This is no news to any of the long timers here familiar with my posts.) I felt Muhammad decisively outscored Trevor from long range with straighter punches, landed the cleaner shots, controlled the movement in the ring (generalship), was reasonably effective neutralizing Berbick's flailing to his body in the clinches, and rarely took a solid shot to the head, defending it competently. Yes, Trevor was busier with his hands, but was it effective aggression? In scoring this match, I had no even rounds (which I am loathe to issue). Ali was 20 pounds heavier than he'd been for Holmes, but he spent far less time against the ropes than one might have expected, and did not take the sort of punishment he had from Shavers, Holmes, or in the first match with Leon Spinks. (For his size, Leon could really hit when in top form. With the proper ethic and more active upper body and head movement, he might have become a two eyed, two fisted Frazier.)

In any event, I thought Ali was better against Berbick than Greg Page (who actually did lose to Trevor by a more lopsided score the following year), and obviously Muhammad did far better than John Tate had. Berbick indicated that Ali hit him harder than Holmes. (Trevor was far more cautious and defensive minded against Holmes though, concentrating on keeping low and keeping Larry in retreat.) Berbick-Ali does seem to make it clear how badly Ali was hampered against Holmes by that ill considered Thyrolar overdose. He was badly diminished in the Bahamas, but also far from a punching bag corpse. I gave Trevor a trio of middle rounds where Muhammad either coasted or got hit solidly and retreated to ride out the storm. I had Ali sweeping the opening and closing rounds. (Boxrec does acknowledge that "He did well for the first three rounds," "and tried to come on in the last few rounds," a telling "between the lines" concession to his performance. These are the rounds I gave him.)

Some fans who take the time to watch the entirety of Berbick-Ali do say this was his worst performance after Holmes, while others are surprised at how much better Ali was in his curtain closer after taking that beating. Nor am I the only one who scored Ali the winner. The greatest rarity is not Ali being scored the winner, but that this was a worse performance than Holmes. My assumption is that whoever rates Berbick-Ali 61 probably hasn't seen it from beginning to end and compared it to Holmes-Ali.

Among Ali's title defenses, I believe a case can be made that he looked worse at 230 for Young than he did at 236 for Berbick. I did have Ali winning comfortably over Jimmy, by virtue of initiatory punching, but agree with everybody else that he looked dreadful in doing so, like Coetzee did in trying to prove his stamina against Chaplin. Ali looked far better making the fight over the first five rounds against Mac Foster at a weight of 226. I don't consider Young to have exposed any inherent discomfort in Ali as an aggressor, just the fact that Muhammad was in horrid condition. Jimmy simply didn't do nearly enough to win. It wasn't like Young-Foreman, where Jimmy was firing off first and scoring while retreating behind his double jab, and countering effectively to the body. Fights are won by throwing and scoring punches, and Young simply didn't do enough of that with Ali.

 

at the end of the day that is the bottom line.

after manila ali concentrated on stealing decisions, just fooling around enough to stay out of trouble because he knew he didnt have it no more. ali would fight for a minute, coast for two and hang on when ever he could. You have to hand it to ali that good fighters bought it and gave him room to stay ahead of the game. ALI was only hard to beat in that he bluffed his way through and made them do more thinking than fighting. He made sure there were a lot of quiet rounds where he nulified his opponent but was crafty enough to step up at the right time.

Norton and co get credit for pushing ali close at this time but this was as much ali's doing. and it was the shell of ali. shavers was still nearly knocked out in the last moments of their fight. However much trouble ali was in against shavers at various moments ernie was way closer to a stoppage at the end. If ernie got that decision it would have been a very shakey claim indeed.

 

totaly agree. I had it closer than you but watched the whole fight and ali was beter in this than against spinks. when you think about it berbick was beter than anyone cooney ever beat.

Against berbick, even though his co-ordination did not look right, Ali's radar was still there. I remember him steping awkwardly into the danger zone but geting a good one two off before berbick could make him pay. he still knew how to use what he had left and made it work while keeping the other guy thinking. For what he had left it was a great effort.

 

A couple of points i should bring up JImmy young was disgraceful in his fight against Ali, watched some of the fight today to some it up ali looked like **** but young kept sticking his head outside the ropes and turning his back on ali terrible.

Imagine fighting for the heavyweight championship and all you do is stick out youe head outside the ropes. Sad to say but jimmy young was a disgrace in that one and i dont use that word lightly.

And on a side note Shavers admitted he lost his fight.

 

I think shavers lost it prety big. ali knew how the scorecards were going because they were televised live and a runner from the dressing room reported them to him in the corner. Ali was fighting just hard enough to nick the rounds he needed.

 

I don't have my scorecard of the fight handy (and haven't had it in hand for many months), however, I can definitely tell you that I had Jimmy taking most of the championship rounds, and that round 11 was among the rounds I gave to Young. For me to say I had Ali the winner is not to say that I agree with how it was scored by the judges. (From memory, I had Ali sewing this one up fairly early, as he did Shavers.)

 

Very good post. I had Ali-Young more or less a draw. Young could have edged it (but it would be the most lackluster dethroning of an undisputed HW champ ever), but I can't really see how it was a robbery. Nor Ali-Norton III (which I had Norton winning by one round). They could both have gone either way, but for it to be robbery in my eyes it has to be decision you can't reach without bias. And I don't see these decisions as such.

 

i agree and i think the robbery talk in regards to the young and norton fights has been blown out of proportion. the norton fights were all close and the young fight was (as stated) the most lackluster title bout since schmeling won the title on a **** punch. ali, as most champions, won all his close decisions. the fact that he earned those wins is almost seen as secondary

 

And pursuant to that is how controversial a title change would have been in both situations. I do not believe an Ali win is nearly as controversial as a decision in favor of Young or Norton would have been in those instances. Leon fought like hell to dethrone him, yet still had to settle for a split decision, only the third SD of Muhammad's career.

Concerning Ali's patented last second flurries to steal a round, Mercante devised a scoring system in his mind to safeguard against this, in part by dividing a round by thirds. He gave Ali eight rounds. AP gave Ali nine. On youtube, most viewers who have actually watched Ali-Norton III from beginning to end for themselves are satisfied that it was no robbery, a close but accurate decision.

 

In some ways, the Young fight could be seen as his worst perfomance. He still had some left, would look much better against Norton later on even after having his legs kicked to pieces, but elected to come in in such a poor shape against a guy he should have taken seriously. Young was a very good contender and just peaking, but Ali looked like he thought he just had to show up in the ring to keep his title. It wasn't an effing rematch with Rudi Lubbers, for crissakes.

 

poor lubbers gets no respect

 

Holmes-Ali has to be 61. That has to be one of the worst beatings ever. and IMO Ali actually landed punches on berbick and took a decision IMO

 

I've expressed some appreciation for his lasting the distance and remaining upright throughout, and not to throw a bone at Pontius or any other members of the Dutch contingent here either. He went 12 rounds with a highly potent Ali between the second bouts with Norton and Frazier. Third tier heavyweights did not go the distance with Ali at that point in time. Muhammad was ten pounds less for Lubbers than he had been for Mathis and Mac Foster. Between Doug Jones and Leon Spinks, Rudi was the only sub 200 pounder to go the limit with Ali. Lubbers would defeat Coopman in his next bout, then Coopman would not lose again until challenging Ali. If Lubbers had held it together in 1974 and 1975 and stayed on track, maybe he could have followed Bugner to a title rematch. (As it was, he did knock out Coopman in five for his final significant win in 1980. If he gets the Lion of Flanders in the ring during 1975, who gets the first throwaway shot at Ali in '76?)