johnmaff, Would you agree, that Ali was involved in some of the most bizarre ring performances of 'all-time'. And outside the ring,,,,,,,,,who comes closes to 'The Greatest'. 'Ive got linament in my eyes',,,,,,,,,,,,,'that was so staged'
Still, Ali had only 3 rounds against Quarry - getting hit and missing punches - but he was back beating a top-rated contender, prettier than ever. The Bonavena fight showed that Ali´s reflexes were´nt as good as they used to. He missed punches and got hit by punches he would´nt have taken in 65, 66 or 67. The common impression after these two fights were that Ali had lost his fast reflexes. Ali fought well - but he was´nt great on march 8 1971. Frazier fought the greatest fight of his career. But I still believe Ali got the fight to early and a better prepared Ali would´ve given Frazier a much better fight.
Claus, What people forget, is that Ali was going to lose his amazing speed sometime. You can't keep it forever. Oscar Bonavena proved that his bull-style, though awkward, was the way to beat Ali. Go straight at him, bull-rush him, then throw punches. You couldn't stay on the outside, thats where Ali lived.
his reflexes were gone in training for his comeback, as noted in the infamous training footage with cus d'amato saying "now he takes two steps when before he only needed one". cus knew ali was past his very best and it showed
I think Ali got a little comfortable around 220 lbs. Same thing with Joe Frazier when he got to 215 lbs. That little extra 5% weight made a huge difference.
By 'bizarre' do you mean controversial? I agree and can understand why the Liston fights can be called both, although my personal view would be the mirror opposite of yours in regards to these fights. The open glove in Cooper 1, was clearly shown in the previous round and since only a matter of a few seconds was involved, i dont think of it as bizarre OR controversial And apart from 2 or 3 decisions given to him, which in fairness can be argued in his favour (jones, norton,young), i cant see where your claims can be substantiated from other than from a dislike of the guy. I mean, where do you get your info from that Berbick was told to hold off on him? Ive never heard this anywhere in my life or on these forums and believe me when i say that theres a lot of guys on here who know their stuff, and if this were true then i would imagine somebody would have brought it up before now. Thats not to say you werent informed of it, i just find it hard to believe. Im not sure i understand your other sentence about who comes closest to the greatest outside the ring either, but its early here and maybe i havent woke up yet. Anyways, i enjoy your posts even though i dont agree with some of them and look forward to your next anti-Ali rant/claim/story
In rating FOTC as a perfomance, I'd say it's a very good losing one. He looks sharp in the early rounds, but it soon becomes apparent that his legs aren't there anymore. The commentator states as early as round two that Ali looks to be tiring. After the first five he fights a losing battle, but does it generally well and shows great courage. All in all I think he shows both skill and guts in that one. He wasn't physically the same and could perhaps have benefitted from one or two more tune-up fights, but still a good perfomance.
johnmaff, How do you think Trevor Berbick (a tough guy at that time) got that fight against Ali. Because of his good looks. At that time, Ali couldn't even keep Middleweights off of him. This was nothing more than a $1,100,00 going away gift, in the Bahamas If Ali had won,,,,,,just where do you think he would have went,,,,,,, No Boxing Promoter wanted him anymore, because he was now closed circuit television poison. The promoter Sports Internationale, lost a bundle, and needed a last-minute bail-out to salvage the promotion. Trevor Berbick got the fight, and the great money (for him), in return for a 'take it easy on Ali' performance. Trevor Berbick got $250,000 plus an additional $100,000 from Ali's take to make it go 10-Rounds. A little bizarre.
Bouts 1) Tunney Hunsaker (legitimate) 2) Herb Siler (legitimate) 3) Tony Esperti (record padder set-up) 4) Jim Robinson (record padder set-up) 5) Donnie Fleeman (record padder set-up) 6) Lamar Clark (record padder set-up w/circus act puncher) 7) Duke 'Koko' Sabedong (legitimate) 8}Alonzo Johnson (legitimate, but controversial scoring) 9) Alex Miteff (set-up) 10) Willie Besmanoff (record padder set-up)
Berbick was better against Ali than he was against Holmes and S.T. Gordon (the latter very possibly a walking tank job). He was much better against Ali than he was with Snipes. Trevor could blow hot and cold, but his performance against Ali looked to me to be entirely sincere. When Holmes doubled Ali over, his follow up attack looked like a genuine bid to end it, but failed. Muhammad was not hampered by a Thyrolar overdose in the Bahamas, and it showed. I think a case can be made that Ali was Berbick's third best performance against world class competition after Tate and Page in the early 1980s. Ali in the Bahamas was still better than the caliber of opponents Trevor typically stopped in his career, still a tough man who could take a shot and apply survival skills. With Muhammad's history, Berbick had to know that letting him go the distance could be a risk, unless he knew beforehand that the scoring was in the bag for him.
yeah, but all fighters have record padders on their ledgers. lamar clark for instance, while a record padder, was a dangerous record padder. i don't care how the opponents are, knocking out 45 guys in a row (i believe) is pretty ****ing tough. especially for a minor right out of the ams
Boffo, From what I can remember. Bob Arum was trying to set up a WBA Title fight, John Tate versus Ali. But first, John Tate had to dispose of Mike Weaver in March 1980. Arum was proposing a Tate vs. Ali for September 1980. Also, Arum was claiming that John Tate was the rightful holder of Ali's Title Belt. And, that John Tate was the best heavyweight since Ali of old. And that Larry Holmes was at best, the #4 Heavyweight in the world, behind John Tate, Gerrie Coetzee and Muhammad Ali. Bob Arum said, he would not disrespect Ali, and put him in the ring with Larry Holmes. Of course, when Mike Weaver knocked-out John Tate, Bob Arums promotion had to be revamped. But when Arum tried to sell Las Vegas on the Weaver vs. Ali Championship Fight, he was met with a resounding NO! Ali, the challenger wanted $5,000,000 and Weaver was willing to take $1,750,000 or thereabouts. Of course Gerrie Coetzee, the #1 WBA challenger was in-line next, and he has his backers were not going to let another title shot slip by. Of course, the WBA would approve the Title fight, as long as the sanctioning fee's were paid.......... But,,,,,the public wasn't buying it.
Lamar Clark,,,,,,,,,,,, 28 year-old, 5' 10" 181 lb. 'circus attraction in Utah' 43-2-0 (42 KO's) Nat Fleischer, Ring Magazine went out to see him fight once. Said he couldn't beat 90% of the Middlweight 'prospects' in the New York Gyms. Ring Magazine wouldn't rank him. A) 25 of his knock-out victims never had a professional fight, before fighting Lamar Clark. B) 10 of his knock-out wins, were against fighters who were professional, but did not have any wins. C) 3 of his opponents had 1-win. D) 1 had 2-wins, but his record was 2-9-0. Could he punch,,,,,,I guess,,,,,
that's kinda the thing. no one takes clark seriously (he didn't make rings 100 greatest punchers ever list for a reason) but he was a reasonable test of ali's chin, especially in light of how young he was.
Joro,,,,, Lamar Clarks 36th bout, his toughest fight up to that point, and first opponent with a winning record. 4/4/59,,,KO 4,,,Tony Burton (4-2-0) Lamar Clark was a 2-Round fighter, good for about 5-minutes. He never fought after his bout with Cassius Clay.