How Techniaclly Skilled was Harry Greb?

Klompton, at the risk of understating it, has done his homework and legwork on this matter, and contends that it has been lost to history by whatever means... There's a thread that goes into good detail about this.

Klompton definitely isn't holding his breath about finding Greb films... I have hope, and I think if it is out there, whoever has it isn't going to make it known they have it.

It's worth more than money or notoriety. You are keeping a piece of history... (no shitstorms on me, please...)

 

Ah, I think you got me wrong. We can very much assess the career of a fighter based on his record and reports. That was not my point. But what we can´t do IMO, is judging their real skills. We may get a glimps or an idea what they were about but we will never no how skilled they really were. For this we need film, reprts aren´t enough.

 

He's around, so he can speak for himself...

I'll try to find the thread- there are others that know their stuff as well. Didn't mean to exclude certain other members that have done their homework and traveled similar roads.

 

I havent touched this thread because Im sure people get sick of me talking about Greb but here are my thoughts:

In re to his skill: Greb could box as well as anyone technically skilled fighter in the world. Period. More often than not he didnt have to because he could rely on his natural talents such as speed, endurance, and durability and win fights easily. That being said I have several accounts of fights in which it is stated that Greb was a master technician and had fought those fights with high degree of skill and precision. However, as stated above he chose to fight in a classical style only on occasion. Far more often he was considered a mover and a dancer. He would bounce around the ring, in and out, very quickly firing bunches of punches before either clinching or bouncing out of range. He would bob up and down and wave his gloves around in his opponents face to disorient him before actually throwing blows. It was often said that you never knew when he was going to actually throw a punch or when he was just doing some "useless motion" as a red herring or feint. He would then leap in with a volley and before you knew it he had bobbed down and danced around behind you. He was that fast with his hands and feet. He would also laugh, smile, and talk to his opponents or people in the crowd. That being said it should be remembered that at times he was indeed called amateurish. However, this criticism is likely due more to a lack of understanding the fact that Greb CHOSE to fight in that style. Its only amateurish if its the only style you KNOW HOW TO FIGHT IN.

His style and overall approach to the sport was most often compared to Johnny Dundee. Who was also known for his bouncing legs, ring smarts, and ability to switch style and tactics several times during a fight (a trait Greb used repeatedly to offset opponents).

As for film: Well, no I dont hold my breath for a film of Greb but to find one wouldnt surprise me either. Ive been searching for a film of Greb for years now and in that search Ive unearthed quite a lot of footage that was not known to exist (I just found 3 new Bennie Briscoe fights and a handful of Emile Griffith and Marcel Cerdan fights yesterday) and quite a lot on fighters that no footage had ever been seen before. For that fact I consider myself privileged and because of that fact I know that finding a Greb film is possible, its just unlikely.

 

Its possible that they were filmed but it has never been proven to my satisfaction. Cameras were present around the time Greb and Dempsey were sparring and Greb stated that they had filmed them sparring but that Dempsey requested those films be destroyed. Its hard to say. Its entirely possible that Greb was never fillmed sparring with Dempsey and that the camera men filmed someone else for use in the buildup (we are talking about the fight film for the Billy Miske bout). Without that film its hard to ascertain. There is also a slim chance that his sparring session with Dempsey at Van Kelton Stadium in New York was filmed as I have footage of Dempsey training there at the same time Greb was training with him but once again its a 50/50 chance that the camera was rolling when Greb was actually in the ring with Dempsey.

Kurt Noltimier for years, and may still, had listed on his lists that he had footage of Greb sparring with Dempsey. This was of course bull****. Kurt is no more creative at bird dogging footage than getting up and hitting the record button on his vcr. The idea that he would have footage of Greb was laughable. It was one of his many cons to get people to purchase from him at inflated prices. If you were dumb enough to purchase the footage, hoping it was Greb, you would get the clip of Dempsey sparring Jock Malone (interesting in its own right) in 1919 that he had cut from the theatrical release of Dempsey-Willard. If you ordered the Dempsey-Willard fight from Noltimier this clip would be conveniently removed so as prevent the possibility of comparing the two.

 

Had you had never seen Napoles on film would you still keep the jury out on his being highly skilled...?

Those who attested to Greb's level of skill were world class professionals, insiders, and trainers. There are plenty of details in fight reports by boxing reporters who were no slouches as to what was what and who was who. That's good enough for me.

 

i'm on the fence in this side of the argument. based on articles and first hand report we can get an idea of how the individual style the person fought in but it's always within the context of the time. how someone fights today may be thought of completely different 50 years from now as they sift through old issues of the ring.

as well written and accurate as the reports may be, they will always be within the framework of what the author has seen and fights they have witnessed. for someone like technical skill or style, this could be dangerously misleading. as someone pointed out earlier, bert sugar described greb as a bigger jimmy wilde, which by most accounts is wildly inaccurate but we don't know how he fought

the descriptions provided can only compare him with fighters of his day and most of the time, the reports seems to indicate that no one fought like greb. it's educated guesswork but still to a degree, guesswork

 

Bert Sugar has less of an idea of how Greb fought than most moderately researched posters on this board. I doubt the man has ever cracked a microfilm. No one that I have ever read during Greb's time compared him to Jimmy Wilde, and this includes people who saw them box on the same card in London. Bert Sugar, as usual, is talking out of his ass.

 

Thats me

 

i love his style: the hat, the cigar, the old school new york writer image

but he really is a poor analyst of boxing (i mean, i don't know nearly as much as most on here and i feel comfortable in saying that)

Ferdie Pacheco takes the cake on ignorance and bias, but sugar isn't the best either

 

When Bert was publishing the Ring and its record books he was passing himself off as some old school reporter, which he wasnt, all the while the historical brains behind the operation was Herb Goldman. Goldman isnt exactly the best historian either but hes a damn sight better than Sugar. Goldman had a lot of strange opinions on how to go back and rewrite title lineages and give fighters titles that didnt even exist when they were fighting (Joe Choynski as LHW champ etc). Because hes sharper than Sugar he got Sugar to go along with this which kind of exposed Sugars ignorance. His rep took a nice hit for that one and now he and Goldman hate each other like poison.