Ali-Foreman II: Who would've won?

:rofl:rofl:rofl george foreman was x4 more powerful than shavers,stronger,bigger with iron chin,he did cut much better the ring, shavers had glass chin, he had great hitting power with his best shots with the right hand, foreman had better pack. AND HE WAS MUCH BETTER FIGHTER. if you are comparing shavers with foreman ....:nut

 

Roy Williams had the 'Formula' versus Ali.

If you were in top condition, go straight at him and very fast.
Only straight punches, no hooks or wasteful body punches.

When he goes into the 'shell defense', don't throw punches, just walk in and lean on him.

As soon as he raps his arms behind your neck, and tries to pull your head down, shoot
a hard punch right into his crotch.

 

Ron Lyle stated on youtube that Shavers was a harder puncher than Foreman (4:20-4:30):

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nl8rabZMIA[/ame]



Muhammad Ali said on youtube that Shavers was a harder puncher than Foreman:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87pndLZrGGU[/ame]



Ken Norton said Shavers, not Foreman or Cooney, was the hardest puncher he ever fought. Jimmy Young said Shavers was the hardest puncher he ever fought, and in fact Earnie, not George, was the only man to ever knock Jimmy down, doing it in both their fights.

Leroy Caldwell about the power of Foreman:
"Foreman could punch about the same as Lyle."

Leroy Caldwell about the power of Shavers:
"He was the hardest hitting human being I have
ever met. He hit harder than Foreman and Lyle
combined."

If you can quote a common opponent of Shavers and Foreman who did say George was the harder puncher, please provide a comment that common opponent made to that effect on camera as I just did for Ron Lyle and Muhammad Ali, or at least a document a direct quote from an interview as I did with Leroy Caldwell.

There's no question that George Foreman was a bigger man with superior physical strength, a sturdier chin (especially in his second career), and more durability. Of course he was a greater fighter. In terms strictly of punching power with concussive force though, you have your work cut out for you if you want to argue with Ali, Lyle, Norton, Young and Caldwell that they are all wrong about Earnie being the hardest puncher they ever fought.

By the way, Shavers did not have a glass chin. He did not generally respond well to punishment and adversity, but it typically took a substantial amount of punching to put him down or stop him. Even when Quarry stopped him in one, Jerry needed to deliver a lot of shots before Earnie fell. Lyle needed to wear Shavers down over the course of five rounds before finally putting an exhausted Earnie down for the count early in the sixth. Ron dropped George twice in round four, both times with just a few big shots.

Exhaustion put an inexperienced Shavers down for the count in round five against Ron Stander, a tough durable man, and solid puncher. The cagey and skilled Bob Stallings dropped a tired Shavers in round nine on his way to a monumental upset decision. After Lyle came off the deck to wear him down and out, the huge and monstrous punching Bernardo Mercado likewise came off the floor to put down a fatigued and aging Earnie in round seven. (Mercado had previously knocked out Berbick in a single round. I guess that proves Trevor had a much worse chin than Shavers. Incidentally, Earnie got up to finish on his feet against Mercado, while Berbick was counted out. Lyle was in 1975, Mercado in 1980, so that's five years between knockdowns.)

Next time Shavers was on the floor, it was in round one against the deadly Jeff Sims. This time, Earnie picked himself off the ground, and knocked out Sims in round five for the one great comeback win of his career, and a darned fine one at that. (Brian Yates was essentially meaningless, as it came in 1995 when Shavers was 50, and attempting a comeback 12 years after his last significant action against George Chaplin in 1983.)

So, Shavers was counted out against Stander and Lyle, dropped by Stallings in an upset where he got up to go the distance, decked by Jerry Quarry after taking many punches (but finished on his feet), Mercado (again finishing on his feet), and Jeff Sims (getting up to win), accounting for six knockdowns during the meaningful portion of his career, spanning from his professional debut in 1969 to Chaplin in 1983, a 14 year period spanning 87 bouts. Six visits to the floor in 87 fights over 14 years against heavyweight competition (much of it world class) is not symptomatic of a glass chin in my book, particularly given his typically wide open brand of free slugging. (Tiger Williams had Earnie receive a standing eight count where the referee ruled that the ropes prevented a knockdown in the final round, but it's by no means clear that this was the case.) Lyle and Mercado were huge punchers who wore him down. Stander was a very hard puncher who outlasted him.

Jerry Quarry was a fast starter with proved one punch power (most in evidence against Jack Bodell), while Jeff Sims was predicted early in his career to be another Liston. Stallings was a far better fighter and much harder puncher than his record suggests. (Four knockouts in round one, and a total of eight stoppage wins in less than five rounds among his grand total of 11 knockouts. Shavers came near the end of the best winning streak of Bob's career, a streak which began with Stallings winning a ten round decision over a well experienced and still very dangerous Mac Foster. Overshadowed by Bob's upset of Shavers, his win over Mac sent the latter into a career ending tailspin.)

During the 1970s, Earnie Shavers was knocked down four times and counted out twice. During the 1970s, George Foreman was also knocked down four times and counted out once. George had 34 fights during the 1970s, while Earnie had 62 fights.

 

Don't forget the bombs Roy 'Tiger' Williams hit Earnie with, and couldn't get
an exhausted man out of there.

Brutal punches in Round 9 and Round 10.

And Earnie wasn't real big either, 6' 1" 208 lbs.

 

Ali would beat Foreman every day of the week. Too much speed, skill, relaxation, defense, chin, condition, experience. A rematch would likely have lasted longer because i think George would pace himself more and show more respect, but ultimately I see Ali stopping him in rounds 12-15, or doing no worse than a unanimous decision.

 

In 1975,I see Muhammad hoding the centre of the ring,using lateral movement,and stopping George around the tenth or eleventh.

 

that's fouling actually so no that would get disqualified

 

Quarry was all over him with punches... Id like to see a punch stat for that.. almost all of them were hellish hooks and straight rights

 

Foremans performance was so ridiculous, so inept of tactics, one of the worst fights by a prime ATG I have ever seen. 100 degree heat and winging away with bombs constantly no defence what so ever getting picked off at will it defies belief. I honestly don't think another ATG prime HW would be as careless or as naive.

I don't think he'd make the same mistake twice, I'm picking Foreman by mid-late stoppage. The chances of the rematch being in a country with 100 degree heat are slim, the chance of Foreman wading in even slimmer.

If only young Foreman had the brain of old Foreman........

 

so you are saying that shavers was harder puncher than foreman and lyle combined, and you think that you have credibility? The facts are facts,and the words are words. In 1974 jack dempsey and joe louis, (who saw liston,marciano,baer,shavers..) george foreman is the most powerful,the strongest fighter and the hardest puncher that we saw ever". Holyfield faced bowe,tyson,lewis,bert cooper,he was the sparring partner of tua. And he said that foreman was the hardest puncher that he faced ever .
.
The only fact is foreman knocked lyle out and lyle did beat shavers by ko, end of the history.
And foreman was much stronger, he head more physical strength by a mile, shavers was a ver lightly harder puncher with his best shot with the right hand. Foreman was better fighter, more durable, he had better chin, he had longer reach, he had more heart better right hand, better upper, and he would destroy shavers.

FUNNY BECAUSE YOU SAID THAT SHAVERS WAS TIRED... BUT YOU NEVER DID MENTION THAT FOREMAN WAS TIRED. FOREMAN NEVER WAS KO BY A SINGLE SHOT OR BY A BLOW... HE WAS "KO" BECAUSE HE WAS VERY TIRED AGAINST ALI, ALI DID TRY TO KNOCK HIM OUT EARLY, AND FOREMAN TOOK EVERY BLOW FROM ALI... FOREMAN TOOK SHOTS FROM MUCH HARDER PUNCHER THAN ALI... LYLE, FRAZIER,NORTON, COONEY, MOORER , HE TOOK COMBINATIONS FROM PRIME HOLYFIELD(EVEN TYSON COULD NOT FINISH THE FIGHT AGAINST PAST PRIME EVANDER), HE TOOK SHOTS FROM STEWART,BRIGGS,BERT COOPER,TOMMY MORRISON.
EARNIE SHAVERS WAS STOPPED IN 1 BY QUARRY, SHAVERS WAS KO BY LYLE, SHAVERS WAS STOPPED BY TONS OF FIGHTERS. SHAVERS HAD A ****ING WEAK CHIN. RON STANDER WAS RAPED BY JOE FRAZIER AND FRAZIER TOOK HIS SHOTS. YOU ARE MAKING EXCUSES FOR EVERY OF HIS DEFEATS BY KO. GLASS CHIN!!

 

First of all, I am not Leroy Caldwell, I am quoting Leroy Caldwell. He did say Shavers hit harder than Foreman and Lyle combined, and he did compete against, and was hit by all three.

But neither of them were ever hit by Liston, Shavers or Foreman. (I assume you're referring to Max among the Baers, although brother Buddy was no slouch in the power department either.)

Yes, I'm well aware of this, and don't doubt him. (Was the omission of Tyson's name an oversight on your part, or did you already recognize that I consider Mike's power to be somewhat overrated?) However, Evander was never hit by Shavers in competition.

Which I'm well known to agree with. He was probably the physically strongest world class heavyweight of all time. Different from punching power though.

Well again, common opponents of Foreman and Shavers are pretty clear about the superiority of Earnie's punching power. Although more is made about the Shavers right, it was his left hook which dropped Lyle and Young (at least in his rematch with Jimmy), and his left hook was the punch which originally stunned Norton. Both Shavers and Foreman had overlooked left hooks which also had excellent power. (True one armed power in great heavyweight punchers is fairly uncommon. I do not know of Ingo doing much with his left hook. I have seen Coetzee and Max Baer flatten people with their left hooks, and Cooney drop Philipp Brown with his right.)

I agree, and don't know anybody who would seriously argue otherwise

At six feet tall, Shavers had a reach of 80 inches, very long for a man of his height. I've seen George's reach listed as low as 78 inches. I do think Earnie threw more straight punches though, and he out jabbed the taller Henry Clark in their first bout, winning a decision over a talented stylist.

Not in his first career, or he wouldn't have been out of action for so long after Kinshasa. Shavers kept coming back quickly from bad defeats. George was out for well over a year after Ali, then out for ten years after Young, later out for over a year after Morrison, then quit for good after Briggs, while Holmes trooped on following his losses (with the partial exception of Michael Spinks II and Tyson, where he was never out for more than three years).

You'd get a lot of argument about that from a lot of fans

You mean uppercut? Better than the one Earnie laid down Ellis for the count with in one round? (Nobody else ever put Jimmy down and out for the full ten, let alone with a single punch in the opening round of a situation where Shavers was in serious danger of losing.)

Aside from Earnie himself, I don't know anybody who seriously would argue otherwise. Obviously, Foreman was much the greater fighter. But this discussion now is about who was the harder puncher, and everybody who was hit by both in competition has said it was Shavers.

I didn't think it necessary. We all know he was exhausted at the end against Young and Ali.

Neither was Shavers.

I do think his chin improved during his second career, although it was very good in his first career.

From the time he was hurt (which was with a massive bomb of a right hand as Earnie was moving in, the first punch thrown after Arthur Mercante warned Shavers about holding and hitting) until he went down, Jerry threw at least 59 punches at Shavers. (I made a quick count of them.) After Earnie got up, Quarry fired off around ten more before referee Mercante stepped in to stop it.

Yes, but Ron did need a lot more punches to finally put him down than the mere handful he needed to drop Foreman.

Five of these stoppages were meaningful: Quarry, Lyle, Holmes, Cobb and Mercado. Yates, the last one, meant nothing, and a case might be made that Stander was too early to be truly significant. That leaves five stoppage losses in 89 fights, seven in 90 if we do count Yates and Stander. Considering his wide open slugging style, and the age he was at when he became a serious contender (already past 30 against Lyle in 1975), it's respectable durability, certainly not great, but sufficient for him to become a top contender.

He wasn't Floyd Patterson, or even Joe Louis (10 career knockdowns taken) for that matter. Competing in a total of 90 fights over a span of 26 years until he was past 50, he only hit the deck seven times. He wasn't Tommy Morrison or Frank Bruno, who were both known to crumble and lose the moment they were hit at times. (And Bruno really dodged a bullet with the mediocre Jumbo Cummings, being saved by the bell ending the opening round after getting knocked on ***** street by a single hard right.)

 

well first of all, very good post you said your opinion with arguments.. without insults.
i wanted say that foreman had better left hand,(i said right hand), and yes better upper ,in my opinion joe louis had better chin than shavers. patterson not. and yes, when i said baer, i was talking about max. and foreman never was stopped early, shavers was, it was by his bad chin, he was not tired in the round 1, obviously

 

I'd put my money on Foreman. There's a reason why Ali ducked him. Rope a dope was brilliant but George wouldn't of fell for it twice. What would Ali of done then?

 

Does this mean that Combates finally agreed that maybe, just maybe he was wrong?

I mean Muhammad Ali said it on video, Ron Lyle said it on Video.
Norton, Young, Caldwell all said that Shavers hits harder but you ignored it and chose to take quotes from Dempsey and Louis even though Joe and Jack didn't face either of them.

If one person says it, its possible that they have a motive but if multiple people say it and not a single party says he opposite then you gotta go with those in the know.

So does Foreman still hit 4x harder than Shavers for a fact or is it maybe an opinion?


Duodenum 1
Combatesdeboxeo 0

 

The question is what Foreman would have done. Norton had a good jab out of an awkward crouch and was very good at using it in order to get openings to the body. Frazier was mean at slipping under straight punches and coming up with a left hook that you didn't see until very late.

Foreman had very little in terms of setting up punches. He usually bullied his opponents into the ropes, which he was very good at, and then let go with everything he had. Well, he tried that against Ali and failed. What next? Well, he did have a good jab, but he didn't have terribly many punches behind the jab. Never saw hin throw a one-two, I think. Ali's jab was better and he doubled or even tripled it if needed to. He also had a mean right behind the jab (or in front).

Foreman's best chance is landing the money shot that ends it all. But even Shavers, who was a superior one-punch KO artist, couldn't do that to an older Ali. How's George going to pull it off?