If Frazier could beat Ali....why can't Tyson? Just sayn....

Tyson fought til the end, had a great chin and took his lumps in defeat but something def. used to "go" in his head when he was tired and under pressure. I wouldn't say he'd quit but I do think, even though he continued to try his best to make something happen, he accepted he was going to lose a fight in a way Ali never did.

 

My problem is that you now have a HW division that is being dominated by Super Heavyweights. Fairly decent guys who have a huge size advantage, can dominate by using their advantage correctly.

The HW division has ended up with dull champions who tower over opponents while jabbing and stepping backwards (I'm looking at you Manny Steward :twisted or guys who simply don't train and come in way overweight, and then plod around the ring flatfooted.

I've always thought the cruiserweight division on paper should be one of the best divisions. Big guys who can bang, who have to keep in good shape and can move around quick enough. But it's never caught fire, a lot of which is probably to do with it's stupid name.

I think move it up to take in bigger guys, rename it the Heavyweight division, and then create a Super heavyweight division for the big guys if you want. Other combat sports employ a cap on their top division, I don't see why boxing has to facilitate them, or at least lets not have them lumbering around in our marquee division.

I agree with whats said in the thread, the number of belts is definitely the worst thing wrong with the sport, but I would change the weight classes as well. The gaps in weight classes at the lower level are too small, and at the other end of the scale I think division like Middleweight could do with a change.

I know it's nice to still have the weight classes mostly the same throughout the history of boxing, but I do think a reshuffle would be good for the sport. I was listing the boxing weight classes to a mate of mine who's into MMA, and i was embarrassed before I got to Lightweight. T

 

No ones saying Tyson didn't have heart or was chinny, just that he wasn't the same fighter the longer the fight went. Remember the James Tillis fight? Just look at Tyson in the first quarter of these fights then look at him in the last quarter...he loses his sharpness noticeably and he also started to fight squared up more and more, his balance got worst as the fight went on. He also allowed himself to be tied up. The reason for him allowing himself to be tied up is because Mike also wanted to rest as well as his opponent. Btw he displayed all these flaws in his "prime" and not just after prison.

 

I was thinking about this last night... :think

 

I am not sure about a Super Heavyweight division. I think as guys have already said, Boxing is littered with too many divisions as it is. The Klitschko's beat up on big men aswell. Cruiserweight is a must and it being moved up to 200lbs was good enough for me. When a man is too tall or too heavy they lose coordination and become gangly IMO. Everybody keeps talking about these big men but the only 2 that can fight are the Klitschko's, if you look throughout history how many truly great heavyweights have been over 6’4 and 240lbs? I can only think of one and that's Lennox Lewis with the Klits just now approaching his status, but Lennox is the only one who's been that size and really distinguished himself. I would take a guy who is 6’3” 220lbs with fighting spirit anyday.

We could get rid of some of the "halfway house" divisions around super feather to light middle, but some of those lighter ones are really necessary. The lighter you go the more the weight makes a bigger difference, even a couple pounds becomes a big deal down there. It's not fair to ask someone like Ricardo Lopez to go and fight in a different division where he can't carry the weight aswell. There maybe a little too many of those junior divisions, but I don't think it makes a huge difference to the state of the sport.

 

Good thread :good

About the weight divisions...I see no need for super fly. You've got Fly at 112 and bantam at 118. No need to have another division between the two. Guys like Donaire, Montiel and Vic have proved you can make the jump from fly to bantam successfully if you're good enough.

Like others have said minimumweight should be disposed of. I'd like light fly to be 107 instead of 108 and then fly at 112. Out of superbantam and superfeather I'd save one. Probably superbantam. A lot of the good superfeathers of recent years (Casa, JMM, Pac, Corrales, Freitas) have more than competed at lightweight and getting shot of 130 would really add depth to 135, historically one of boxing's greatest divisions.

Same with light welter and light middle, keep one and get rid of t'other one. I'd lean towards keeping lightwelter. 154 has seen some great fights and fighters but it's always seemed like a stop-gap between welter and middle for most weight jumpers. Not many great fighters (if any?) have hung around and dominated 154. Even recently we've seen top light middles being lured up to middle for the fame and glory.

For me as well cruiser should move back down to 190, or better still, 185. You'd see a real increase in the talent pool at HW. After the Klits it's anyone's division. And although we're seeing a lot more bigger guys like Fury, Pulev and Helenius, IMO smaller, more skilled fighters could beat them. An in-shape, skilled 210lb, 6ft1 fighter could easily outbox and outmanoeuvre these clumsy giants.

Let's be honest the Klits are dominating because a) they're actually quite good at what they do and b) there's no significant threats to their reign.

One thing I've thought about is maybe getting rid of 168. Yeah, Britain has a great history in that division and the Super 6 is great but what's to say Ward, Bute and Froch couldn't weigh in at 171, 172 and beat many of the light heavies. And I know it makes it hard for middles to move up and we now live in an era where it seems multi-weight success are a must for great fighters.

However, Hopkins made the jump straight from middle to lhw, so if you're great enough you should be able to do it. If you're not great then tough luck, stay at middle and do your stuff.

 

I really think this idea that losing Cruiser or lowering the weight would increase the talent pool at heavyweight is wishful thinking probably caused by the **** state of the division these days.......

 

I do think that after the Klitschko's it would help. There's not a lot coming through and some of these smaller guys would find success.

Eddie Chambers admits he can make cruiser and he can hang with any HW not named Klischko.

Povetkin is a short fella and weighs in the 220's. Pre-Atlas, he was a talent who could beat many if not most guys in the division.

The two biggest non-Klit names are Haye and Adamek. Both former cruiser champions.

 

Being "names" arn't the issue though mate. I know both those guys can also compete but don't muddy the waters with the "names" stuff.....;O)

I think 200lbs is pretty much spot on for cruiser, even with that limit we've all see fights where we've been 99% certain of the result before the first bell because of the size disparity between the 2 fighters. Not a good thing......

 

Alright, Haye is no.3 in the division and Adamek is top 10. Adamek beat Arreola who was being hyped.

Like I said, the Klits are getting underrated. They have skills with their size (especially Wlad) and if you take them out the division would be dominated by little guys.

Say the cruiser limit had stayed at 190 then Haye would have stepped up much earlier and would have had more time to carve out a legacy :hey

 

get ta ****!!!!

;O)

 

Don't you agree that smaller, skilled guys would get rid of the overweight, oversized, unskilled lumps?

 

No, I honestly don't mate. Size would decide the outcome of a fight far too often IMHO.

(You've also framed the question in a very slanted manner....)

 

Valuev - beat by the better fighters in Chagaev and Haye. In lots of trouble with Holyfield.
Dimitrenko - Outclassed by Chambers, I'm sure a few other smaller guys could beat him.
Adamek beat Grant (well past prime admittedly)
Solis recently beat Austin

Talent over size in those. I suppose you're going to say they're the exception rather than the rule

 

Damn right I am!! For every example of a good little HW beating a bigger one I could give another example where pure size was the deciding factor in a fight.

Bottom line is that 175lbs to 250lbs is too big a gap.