Overeem has a whole lotta "L's" on his record that say otherwise. Everyone from Fedor to Werdum to Lesnar, Carwin and Velazquez would most likely take him down and pound him out or submit him again in Werdum's case. Overeem is good against guys he can overpower and manhandle but he folds under adversity. He isn't going to stop any of those guys from taking him down. Overeem has a good guillotine but other than that he has no guard off his back.
Right now Cain holds two high quality wins over Brock Lesnar and Big Nog. I know that some people will say that Lesnar's an inexperienced 5-2 fighter who's been exposed in his last two outings, and that Nog's washed up, but they were still highly regarded fighters when Cain went up against them. Aside from that he has two good wins over Rothwell and Kongo, who are solid B-list competition. It's not a brilliant resume, but it could be the start of one. I'd say Fedor, Overeem, Werdum, Barnett and even Bigfoot should be rated higher if they win the tournament. Going 3-0 in this tournament, plus their existing accomplishments, is enough to overtake Cain. Far more than enough, in some cases.
No. They were not. Only UFC fans and UFC hype regarded either man as anything serious. Its clear as light is day that Nog is shot to **** and Brock has ZERO MMA experience to be a long term champion. This is the equivalent of lauding Rahman's win over LL. Rahman was a rank outsider. Brock was the same. He was GIFTED a shot at the title. Won. And now we're supposed to take him seriously as a legit threat in MMA? Give me a ****ing break. The UFC can sell that shite to their zombies but there is no way im buying it. Been watching MMA far too long to fall for that shite. When Brock starts beating the calibre of opponents that are in the SF GP il sit up and take note.
The main point should be that Cain only has two wins over ranked opponants, if Overeem were to beat Werdum and Fedor before Cain fights again he'd have beaten 3 ranked opponants with the last two both being towards the top end. Sherdog being a UFC schill site though are naturally now holding to a "you've got to beat the man to be the man" policey even though they did nothing of the sort when Werdum beat Fedor.
A bit hard to argue that they weren't serious. At the time, they were both 4-1 in their last five, and ranked in the top ten by almost everyone. Big Nog had beaten Barnett, Herring, Sylvia and Randy Couture, losing to Frank Mir. Brock was on a four fight win streak, having beaten Carwin, Couture, Mir and Herring, with a loss to Mir as well. Brock was gifted a title shot he didn't deserve, but the belt is less important than the level of competition he's fought. Big Nog and Lesnar had better recent accomplishments when they fought Cain, than the likes of Kharitonov, Arlovski and Brett Rogers do now.
Well, it's understandable. It doesn't look good for the Strikeforce Heavyweights when you have a guy like Werdum... who wasn't very successful in the UFC going 2-2... getting destroyed by JDS. Werdum then goes over to Strikeforce and takes out 2 of their top heavyweights including their absolute best Heavyweight, the man they backed as the best in the world.... Fedor, as well as Antonio Silva. As well as the fact that he already has a win over their current Champ, Overeem. Now, if Werdum comes out and wins the GP, how does he then leapfrog over the UFC Champ? He couldn't even compete against the best in the UFC when he was there. If he doesn't... how does the winner of the GP leapfrog over the UFC champ when they are fighting against UFC outcasts like AA (who couldn't get the better of Sylvia and has been absolutely horrid lately), Werdum... who couldn't perform well in the UFC, and guys like Silva, and Fedor who were already beat by Werdum. You have old heads like Barnett hanging around... but he hasn't been significant in YEARS. The last two significant fights he had were against Cro Cop and Big Nog and he lost them both. Overeem himself hasn't fought anyone worthwhile in quite a long time. I would say that his has gone 1-5 against the best 6 fighters that he faced in the last 5 years. His recent run of success means next to nothing to me... because he hasn't beaten anyone impressive. Don't get me wrong... I am excited as hell to see this SF GP, and I think it's a GREAT idea. I am excited to see each and every one of the fights. However, I think that the SF heavyweights are being overrated.
Surely its silly to get into these hypotheticals and it'd be better to wait until we see how everything plays out? If the SF Tournament goes like a million bucks and the winners looks super impressive beating three opponents that themselves are proven to be credible then sure I could see them leap frogging the UFC Champ if that champion has looked that impressive. Likewise if the UFC champion has looked good, fought frequently whilst the Strikeforce tournament descends into a super six level farce then the UFC Champ should be the top ranked fighter.
Why? It's the truth. It's no secret that you have a huge disdain for the UFC. I love both ORGs, I love MMA in general and I watch them all equally. I just try to look at things with a level head. This is the same thing that always happened with Pride fighters. Anytime that anyone did something in Pride they were the greatest in the world... if they came to the UFC and got beat... then they "weren't the same fighter that they used to be". Even if that "used to be" was just a couple months earlier when they were on top of the world in Pride. It's no secret to people closely involved with MMA that Pride fighters were cranked up on every drug imaginable. Go train with some guys who were around pride for a while, and they will come right out and tell you. That's why the didn't look like the same fighter when they were actually being drug tested in the UFC. Some have leveled out and found very good success in the UFC. This is because, of course... there were some great fighters in Pride too. It was just EXTREMELY overrated as to how far some people pretended like the talent gap was. I am not saying this is the case with SF... what I am saying is that it's the carry over from Pride fighters that is overrating these SF Heavyweights (most from Pride). People have a hard time letting go. Even when the people in question haven't really done anything impressive against top competition in years.... or ever in Overeem's case. Let's be honest here... who is Overeem's best win against? A down in the dumps Belfort, or Brett Rogers? 6-7 Mark Hunt? Overeem lost to all of the best fighters that he faced.
And you're a model of objectivity right :roll: Since when did the UFC's heavyweight division become the "bar" to measure the best heavys in MMA against? Historically its ALWAYS been ****. Now is no different. Apart from Cain and JDS their division is weak. Now you start meandering on about drug use as though no UFC heavy was ever on them. Couture's made a career out of hormone replacement. Brock was POSITIVELY on gear throughout his NCAA OVW and WWE career. And Carwin was also found to be on hormones which has conveniently been swept under the carpet. Additionally Sylvia and Barnett were also on gear whilst in the UFC. Matter of fact your favourite Coleman made a nice living off them in the UFC and PRIDE. So your maths dont work. Imagine that THEIR champion was a steroid user... Anyway thats another argument... Its abundantly clear SF have the better talent depth and experience. You've gone out of your way to rubbish Wedrums credentials as though they are now of no merit because he was ousted from the UFC and lost to JDS. Is that some kind of joke? Werdum stuck two fingers up at the UFC because they tried to offer him chump change after he lost to JDS. Werdum is one of the BEST submission grappler's in MMA PERIOD. He lost to JDS. So what? This is MMA. Are you going to kid me that JDS is now the barometer to measure all talent by at heavyweight?!?!? A prospect who barely has as many fights as Overeem has losses? The same guy who got armbarred by a relatively uknown light heavy Ferreria who himself got wiped out by perrenial tin can Sokodjou at Impact FC 1? Your logic doesnt add up. ANYONE can loose on any given night as we saw with Fedor and Werdum. Werdum was clearly the favourite vs JDS. JDS pulled off the upset. Same way Werdum did vs Fedor. But the facts are Fedor was the man to beat. NOT Lesnar, not Carwin Mir Nog or any of usuals we see rolled out by the UFC. Whomever wins the GP is undeniably the best heavy in the world. If Cain and JDS want to lay claim to that "title" then let them come to SF and fight in the GP.
Well... you are dancing around just about every point that I made. So, I am not going to retype them again. I will say that I am NOT just talking about Steroids. Steroids it's own seperate issue across the board in all professional sports. However, it's a lot easier and more effective when you can juice up with disregard for being caught because you know that you are allowed. Once again... I am not just talking about Steroids. I am talking about blood doping, the kind of **** that just lets you go ballistic for LONG periods of time. Which also seems to have much more of an effect in a fight than just juicing up. Mix the two together... and you become an entirely different animal. I am sure that you know this. I never said that Werdum wasn't anygood. He is a very good fighter, and a great submission grappler.
Dancing around what? I answered your point. You're the one that made the assertion about Werdum's legitmacy IF he won the GP. You implied that he clearly wasnt worthy enough of being considered the man even though he beat Fedor who was THE man. Additionally blood doping steroids whatever. They're performance enhancers and have no merit for the topic at hand. Either way the accusation can be levelled at almost any organisation in MMA. So i fail to see why you think you have a point about PRIDE fighters on PED's when UFC fighters have been doing exactly the same. Plus there OWN heavyweight champs on more than one occasion have been found to have been on hormones or used them in the past. Carwin Coleman Randleman Barnett Couture (NSAC approved....) and Lesnar. The same isnt true of PRIDE with Nog and Fedor.
I thought that you were a little more knowledgable about the subject than you seem to be. Nevermind.:good