Your Top 3 ATG by Weight Class.

What do you mean you havent seen it yet :

Here are some comparisions for you ;

Gomi 05 vs Edgar 11

GSP 11 vs Carlos Newton 04

Silva 11 vs Militech 04

Shogun 11 vs Liddell 07

Velasquez 11 vs Cro Cop 05

Picture in your own head where these fighters are now , to where there peers where then ???

The only fight being close to be considered competetive would of been a prime Gomi vs Frankie Edgar who is still a baby , and that is debatable

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_47KVJV8DU[/ame]

 

8 - 10 years ?

UFC 1 = 1993

MMA existed long before that but wasn't that popular from what I know.

Lesnar is a ****in joke of the sport, I don't ****in care he won the UFC HW title because DW said he could have a shot...and now Velasquez has the belt when JDS deserve it more. UFC belt doesn't mean **** honestly, it's a ****in jewelry belt that DW can decide if you can fight for it or not, especialy at HW.

What did he achieved ? He was giving a fight against a joke and won it, WOW, I'm impressed.

You don't seem to understand that we are only laughing at you because you are putting a guy with 9 fight ATG#3.

It's not a debate on who should be the belt holder...so why do you bring Frankie Edgar ?

The difference between the case of BJ and Velasquez is that I doubt someone put BJ ATG#3 LW after 3-0 record...he was hyped as the best and fought, proved himself and now we can put him in a ATG list.

Maybe in the futur, but not right now.

 

Velasquez 11 vs Fedor 2001 :yep

Can't be one rule for one and another for everyone else surely?

 

Win, what about Damien Maeia? The guy is essentially pure BJJ, amazing at it no doubt, and gets results/is competitive with guys benefitting from the apparent massive leaps the sport has seen in recent years.

MMA has had well-rounded fighters before, you know this as well as anyone. There is now more talent across the board (because knowledge is very accesible now and there's a lot more practitioners of MMA, not pro wrestlers who were 'hard', to make reference to Fujita, or guys that were just skilled in one thing) but needless to say, Kongo, a faded Nog and Brock Lesnar does not make a top 3 ATG.

Cro Cop and Nog didn't make massive waves in the UFC, other fighters have left and got beat elsewhere. Regardless of Cains impressive ledger this far, he hasn't done enough to justifiably topple say, Randy Couture, who has wins over Gonzaga (BJJ skills when prior to Cro Cop, could bang as well although he was increasingly one dimensional as he went on) Sylvia and Pedro Rizzo to give a quick run through. He had losses, some bad (Valentijn Overeem is the first that springs to mind, guillotined from his first takedown attempt) some at light heavy which I wouldn't count towards his HW ledger (but would of course ce into play when discussing his P4P placing) but still arguably did more than Cain has done this far.

Add to that he was undersized, essentially a tough wrestler, and had a couple of good wins at an advanced age, you think he would garner enough kudos for a top 5 rating. Yet many say no? Has Cain already surpassed Randy in terms of greatness?

 

Flea Man damn it you forgot the :deal

 

I won't get involved with slanging matches with Win, he's sound. We had our differences at first but he's cool.

I hope he responds mind you, I think it's a fair debate.

 

Listen, I can't stand fans who think the UFC is the be all and end all of MMA, but if the UFC belt means **** all then what then do the Strikeforce and DREAM belts currently owned by Overeem mean? Considering who he beat to get them?

 

IMO none of the HW belt means anything right now !:good

Except the GP K-1 belt...but that isn't really MMA so... !

 

This is exactly the type of shite im talking about , MMA @UFC1 was a grappler vs a kick boxer , a wrestler vs a submision wrestler , a boxer vs a thai boxer , that is not MMA , they didnt even wear gloves FFS !!!

When i said MMA has only been live for 8 - 10 years i thought you'd have the foresight to pick out the word live !!!! , the example i was making about Penn was that the sport is still so young and evolving so quick that you cannt just say a guy with 9 fights does not warrant a place in amongst crabs like Barnett and Arlovski when you look at the ATG great list .

Velasquez is so far ahead of them in terms of skill that it aint funny , added to that the guy has won the UFC HW title which you have your opinions about and i have mine , myself i see it as a huge acheivement !!

Look bro im not looking to pick a fight with you , and im happy your laughing at me , but i have these debates with people like you all the time , EXAMPLE its easy to discredit a guy like Brock Lesnar , why ??? , because the guy weigh's 280 , looks awful on the feet and was in the WWE , well guess what dude the man was a NCAA wrestling champion with a record of 111 & 3 , thats why he's credible and relevant , whats not credible is your knowledge of this sport . You have to go into the nooks and crannies of this sport to understand what makes a fighter !!!

Lets look at some HW's and there backgrounds before and during MMA ;

Fedor - Sambo
Big Nog - JJ followed by boxing
Barnett - Catch wrestler who learned some boxing and JJ
Arlovski - Sambo
Mir - JJ / Karate

If all of the above is credible then Lesnar's acheivements as a wrestler is credible , oh but in your eyes he's a joke and Dana is a joke , no Bro your the joke .

Do some research

 

Ill start with Maia

The guy gets results because his JJ is top of the pile , and when i say top of the pile i mean like Shaolin , Jacare Souza top of the pile , he is that good at JJ essentially when he gets a hold of you its all but done , that is a huge feather to have in your cap to have , if your JJ skills are that good that when you pull guard with no GI and still secure submissions ......................... thats something to be proud of and something to be scared of too !!!! , even in todays sport a skill set like that can get you by . Dont right off Maia's stand up , lets not forget he went the distance with the worlds most deadliest striker , his stand up while it looks ugly isnt bad , then you have the added element that your opponent wont go near you incase you drag him down and you have an effective MMA style .

This is something Royce Gracie could never of achieved

Couture is a shout for sure , ive mentioned numerous HW's than can all be ranked all time but IMHO i dont see what any of them have done that Velasquez hasnt done much much better at double quick time .

Lets take Randy Couture for an example , it took Couture 4 years in the sport before he worked out what style of fighter he was and before he could effectivley apply his stand up skills , after 2 years Cain Velasquez was effectively a striker , a fully fledged kick boxer , and you have to argue the point that yes the likes of Congo , Nog , Lesnar and the likes are better than the guys the older generation were fighting , not only that its now every single fight , every fight a champion is now expected to fight the #1 contender one after the other , this was not the case in Pride and not always the case early UFC .

Look at the version of BJ Penn that fought at UFC 35 for the LW title against Jens Pulver and watch the tape of the BJ Penn that dominated Florian and compare the difference , then go and look at Edgar Penn 2 and you can paint your own picture of how fast this sport is evolving

I think Velasquez's acheivements in terms of his level of opposition and the way he's dealt with it thus far , has him in at #3 , thats just my opinion of Cain Velasquez , i think the guy is a special type of athlete , and i think what he's done as it stands today warrants him in above some of the more shall we say seasoned HW's

If your ranking Couture AT he has more of a chance of sneaking in at 205 than HW , his acheivements @205 outweigh what he done @HW IMO .

 

Flea your a great poster in the boxing forums and i love reading your stuff and respect the knowledge you have on the sport of boxing , i hope you can do the same for my knowledge of the sport of mma

Good one :good and what a ****in fight ;

Fedor 01 - Velasquez 11 , in Pride , id have to tip Fedor as the favourite , overhelming advantage in stand up and very very tricky off his back , with the stop start nature of the ring id give Fedor an edge here , this would be a big factor is nullifying Velasquez and his style .

In the UFC octagon and UFC rules , it allows a more fluent style of fight and favours wrestlers , and id be backing Velasquez to apply his wrestling to a level that Fedor could not of handle'd and would of had no referee or no ropes to save him , ive got Velasquez in this scenario

 

No the exemple you were trying to make with Penn is that with a record a 3-0 everyobody was hyping him but nobody was putting him at a #3 ATG spot, now we can put him there. . Same thing with Velasquez. I'm not even saying that Cain isn't good, the only thing I'm saying is that for a guy with a 9-0 record it's compleltly stupid to put him in a ATG list especially if he has fought a more encline to get KTFO Nog and a ****in joke named Brock Lesnar. After that you got Kongo and Rothwell...JDS resume is 100 time better then Velasquez him sorry.

For Brock I really need to ask/say something. I'm from Canada so I really don't understand americain obsession with College sport. If you take Fedor exemple, he is not a college champion of Sambo, he is a ****in world champion of Sambo...8 ****in time, plus bronze medal of judo in a world championship. That I can call credential and relevant. But college wrestling ? honestly ? So you are telling Lesnar fought the best in the world in wrestling...or only in the U.S. ?

Who cares if the guy has a record of 111-3 in college wrestling, honestly man, have you even looked at how Lesnar is fighting ? He doesn't even use his wrestling like he should. He is all about strenght an no technique whatsoever. Same thing for his striking it's pathietic. And DW giving him a title shot after 3 fight is completly ridiculous. Sorry but Lesnar IS THE ****IN JOKE OF MMA. He doesn't fight like someone with a 111-3 record in wrestling, he make some many stupid mistake and he is far from being a fighter, sorry man, but Lesnar is everthing bu relevant in this sport !

If Lesnar could use what you called ability, then people wouldn't even talked about him becasue he would do is ****in job, but he DOESN'T.

Cain has potential but he can't be in a ATG right now, or if he is, he is at the bottom but not #3. That's just plain stupid.

 

Let me try to put this another way.
We all know BJ Penn is a ATG. When did he achieve that status ?
Was it with 9 fight(Win: Joey Gilbert, Dean Thomas, Caol Uno, Paul Creighton, Matt Serra, Gomi, Hughes/ Loss: Jen Pulver / Draw: Caol Uno)

Or was it later ?

 

Lesnar is relevant but in no way was he the dominant force he was hyped as being, his high ranking was as much the product of a mixed up HW division and the UFC's desire to promote him as anything else.

So really who has Cain beaten, a couple of decent mid level guys, a Nog who looked well past his best and a big guy with a dangerous but potentially very flawed game.

Does that make him more worthy of the #3 spot than Crocop who holds wins over Fujita*2, Igor, Herring, Coleman, Randleman, Barnett*3, Wanderlei, Aleks, etc?