If Joe Calzaghe had lost a fight, would you still consider him an ATG?

Yes they could but are yet to. Plus thats easier said than done. IMO Calzaghe is better than Froch so would always be ahead of him in ATG rankings but as I said I don't really know how all that **** is assessed & don't really care. Ward is the only threat to Calzaghe in the S6 IMO. I don't see how Froch can be ahead of JC after losing to a worse Kessler than JC beat. Ward's only beat a worse version of Kessler in more impressive fashion (minus the headbuts). You can't definitively say any of these guys are better than JC yet. The Hopkins victory is also a good win IMHO. I'm not tryin to say he's anywhere near the G.O.A.T but he wasn't bad.

 

Spot on.

I had him losing the Hopkins fight too, as shitty as that bout was.

 

Agreed 100%. But because Calzaghe is better than Froch and would beat him 9 out of 10 times won't necessarily make him more accomplished when it's all said and done. As of now, yes. But Froch has had an impressive 5 man run of opponents........Pascal, Taylor, Dirrell, Kessler, Abraham......that I don't think Calzaghe could match. Fighting top guys is what it's all about. So, if a guy loses once in a while, well, it happens. Froch isn't young, so that works against him. And I don't think he will eclipse Joe. But hey, you never know. Like I said, if he beats Johnson, then Ward. Rematches Kessler and wins, then takes on Bute and wins? Impressive. But it's a lot to ask for a guy with limited skills.

As for Ward, he is still very young. He is very adaptable and has good skills, but his power leaves a lot to be desired. He needs a bunch more wins to be considered.

Point is, the division is still quite young, and the next great fighter to come along and stay there, could be the next atg smw.

 

i never knew he was an ATG...

 

the hate for calzaghe goes on and on but nothing will change

he spent a life time spanking americans, even in their own backyards despite moving up in weights

46 and 0, there was never a blueprint and there never will be

 

His win over Tocker Pudwil secured his top 5 ATG ranking for me.

Here is what the BBC had to say about Sugar Pudwill;

"Pudwill was not ranked in the top 100 of any recognised world boxing rankings and it was immediately evident that Calzaghe had been given the easiest of nights."

 

1st of all lets dispell the myth about the supposed greatness of hopkins resume, take away the smoke and the mirrors and this is what your left with from hopkins 6 best wins, with 4 of them being from when he made his opponent fight way above what their best weight was.





trinidad
prime weight = welterweight (147)
fought hopkins at middleweight (159)
trinidads record at middleweight or above from hopkins onwards = 2 wins / 3 defeats

winky wright
prime weight - light middleweight (154)
fought hopkins at - 170 lbs
in 57 fights, the hopkins fight was the only fight that wright had weighed over 160 lbs (a full 10lbs difference)

de la hoya
prime weight - welterweight (140lbs)
fought hopkins at - middleweight (160lbs)
de la hoya only fought twice in his career at middleweight out of 45 fights -1 win / 1 loss - the win was a very debatable decision over eurobum felix sturm

pavlik
prime weight - middleweight (160 lbs)
fought hopkins at - 170 lbs
in 34 fights pavlik had only fought 2 minnions at the beginning of his career at 169. all pavliks fights since hopkins have been at the 160 limit.

tarver
prime weight 175
great 2 weight jump from hopkins and his best win despite tarver being a b-level fighter and going 3 wins / 3 losses from hopkins onwards.

johnson
prime weight -super mid / light heavy (162 to 175)
fought hopkins at - middleweight (160)
johnsons record at 160 + from hopkins onwards - 19 wins / 14 defeats / 2 draws
the defeats have come against people of the level of ottke, woods, shieka, gonzales, harmon, branco, vanderpool, Kiwanuka, sosa





next you throw in the fact that calzaghe beat hopkins sandwiched inbetween hopkins supposedly best performances of tarver, wright, pavlik, pascal.

take into account that for the hopkins fight, calzaghe
- fought at light heavy for the 1st time
- fought in hopkins back yard
- had hopkins brother joe cortez referee the fight and do everything in his power to try and even up the fight

despite all this, joe calzaghe with extreme brittle hands defeated hopkins.



now we here you hopkins fans scream "that wasn't hopkins prime", well it was certainly the point of hopkins career where he was getting his best results. was hopkins prime when he was beating robert allan 3 times and beating hakkar and calling every welterweight on the planet to fight him?



so we then answer the question of why the 2 hopkins and calzaghe didn't fight each other whilst in their supposed primes in 2002

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now it wouldn't be fair for me not to give hopkins some credit because he is a very clever man, extremely astute tactically and defensively, he knows how to disrupt an opponents rhythm and he knows to neutralise an opponents strengths. he's also very good at calling out fighters he knows he can expose tactically and calling out fighters he will have big weight and strength advantages over.


the bottom line in all this for me though, is that bernard hopkins was not good enough to win 7 of his fights (5 defeats, 2 draws). there is a clear blueprint there of how to beat hopkins and this is probably the reason why hopkins didn't want to fight dawson but was desperate to fight pascal.

on the other hand, there is no blueprint to beat calzaghe, sure fighters can cause calzaghe problems but there is a versatility in him, a common trate in great fighters where he can adapt to the man he is fighting and find a way to win, the charachter to stare adversity in the face and walk through it by adapting his gameplan to that of his opponent.

for hopkins there will always be a blueprint of how to beat him but for calzaghe there never will be. on top of that there will always be that head to head victory over a version of hopkins that is far better than any hopkins fan on here will be prepared to admit, as well as the 7 fights hopkins wasn't good enough to win.

 

British Super Middleweight Champion

WBO Super Middle Weight Champion - UD Chris Eubank

Eubank lost 2 close, controversial Decisions to Steve Collins and dropped him
After this fight Eubank floored David Haye Conqueror Carl Thompson

Former WBC Super Middle Weight Champion - SD Robin Reid

Reid lost to Benn Conqueror and former champ Malinga by decision and came back hungry only to lose a close decision. was a good close fight.

TKO Omar Sheika

Sheika beat Glen Johnson and not too long ago gave Diaconu a hard time. Decent win.

Former WBC Super Middleweight Champion - TKO Richie Woodhall

Former british and european middleweight champion who beat Reid and Benn Conqueror Malinga only to lose a decision to Beyer. Woodhalls Last fight

Former IBF Super Middleweight Champion - UD Charles Brewer

Former Champ who lost 2 Controversial Desicions to Germany's very own Sven Ottke
was TKO'd by Antwun Echols before this fight but still a very good fighter

Former WBA Super Middleweight Champion - TKO Byron Mitchell

Another Champ who got robbed by Ottke, Mitchell put Calzaghe down only to get stopped in the same round.

IBF Super Middleweight Champion - UD Jeff Lacy

In a fight many thought he would lose, Joe dominated Lacy in every round dropping him and argubally ruined his career whilst unifying the belts. Lacy before this stopped Robin Reid.

WBO + IBF Defence - UD Sakio Bika

A tough fight for any fighter at 168, Bika had a controversial loss to Beyer and recently Ward and was beaten soundly ( although not easily ) by Joe

WBO Defence - TKO Manfredo Jr.

Although not an important fight at the time, Manfredo made a comback after another loss to Bika at Middleweight and has beaten some decent contenders. Currently holds the IBO strap

WBA + WBC Super Middleweight Champion - Mikkel Kessler

Argubally Joes Best win, Kessler was undefeated and regained the WBA after this fight only to lose it by being headbutted and elbowed for 12 rounds by americas version of sven ottke but came back to beat Froch to regain the WBC only to drop it due to injuries.

Former undisputed Middleweight Champion + Ring Light Heavyweight Champion - Bernard Hopkins

Close fight but in my mind no doubt Joe won. recovered from an early knockdown to outpace Hopkins and force him to use stalling tactics and Cheating. Hopkins dominated Tarver before this fight and went on to beat Pavlik and recently draw with Pascal.

Final Fight - Former Middleweight, Super Middleweight, Light Heavyweight and Heavyweight Champion - Roy Jones Jr. UD

All be it a final pay day but still against a decent opponent. Roy had been on a downhill since his losses to Tarver and Johnson but had not been beat since and went onto beat Sheika and Lacy after this fight. Dropped Joe in first round but was cut badly and dominated for the rest of the fight.

Joes better than people make out to be