Lennox Lewis vs Mike Tyson, prime for prime, who wins?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by round15, Dec 22, 2008.


  1. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Obviously they are not infinite. There are limitations. Suggesting otherwise is just twee.
     
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Obviously things that actually occur are within those limits :lol: But that's a bit like saying if it is real it is real, and i took it for granted you would take it for granted.

    But it's impossible for someone to, say, lift the moon or indeed any weight that is very slightly or greatly beyond them. Being shot 8 times in the face is beyond the power of mental strength to rectify. When you say:

    you are saying something absolutely ridiculous.
     
  3. Kalasinn

    Kalasinn ♧ OG Kally ♤ Full Member

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    He did look horrible in his only title defence, but he was in horrible shape, & facing a Peak Holy who masterfully boxed with blinding speed.
    I don't mean to discredit Holy's win, since i think he would've made short, easy work of Tokyo Douglas too, especially since he had promised a 3rd round KO.

    Try watching Douglas-Berbick, Douglas-McCall, even Douglas-Tucker before his mental strength failed him & he quit. Like i said, technically & physically gifted for a man of his size. He wasn't "special" on the grande scale, including fighters below 225lbs, but he certainly was more than decent for his size, & quite special at his absolute Peak. However, i do acknowledge that the "one big headhunting bomb" lethargic Heavybag Tyson he faced would likely lose to the ageing Berbick & young McCall who Douglas beat & the Peak Tucker who busted Buster...

    http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...2023249_1_tyson-trevor-berbick-buster-douglas

    Also, i once read an interview with Berbick from before the fight, when he stated that Tyson was doing so horribly in sparring, even before leaving for Tokyo, that all his sparring partners were "kicking his ass" including McCall, Page & Trevor himself.
    I've hunted many times for that interview again, but alas it alludes me so far.
     
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  4. Kalasinn

    Kalasinn ♧ OG Kally ♤ Full Member

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    That's what i thought McGrain was implying too.
     
  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Yes, you are mistaken.

    I don't think of it as a set "number" but rather working along within certain boundaries.

    Just like strength, it has its limitations.

    This is the reason Ali-Frazier III or Ross's determination versus Armstrong so amazes us - because not everyone can do it, not because everybody can. It is rare because the extreme boundaries of mental strength are rare.
     
  6. lefthook31

    lefthook31 Obsessed with Boxing banned

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    No I just think Tyson wasnt mentally prepared for what Douglas was going to bring that night and it was an accumulation of many things. He, like everyone else, was thinking Douglas was going to be another Alex Stewart or Carl Williams, and when the going got tough Tyson fell apart because deep down he knew he wasnt prepared to fight a tough fight. Regardless of what most people think, I think that was a part of the reason Douglas looked so good that night. Tyson seemed to resign himself to getting picked off on the outside, where he had shown the ability in the past to adapt and find safe havens against similar outside fighters.
     
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  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I won't take away that one night against Tyson, when yeah, he was "quite special", i'll give you that. But generally speaking, he just wasn't that good, at all.
     
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Would Frazier have fallen apart? Would Armstrong? Of course not. This is what I mean when I say that Tyson doesn't chart that highly on this scale. Frazier new he wasn't what he was going into Manilla, but when he hit his concrete he kept ****ing digging. As you've pointed out, Tyson crumbled.

    Agree, to a degree. I probably don't believe this as firmly as you do, but I understand completely what you are getting at. That "resignation" is what I am talking about, specifically.
     
  9. lefthook31

    lefthook31 Obsessed with Boxing banned

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    I always enjoyed Douglas when he was in shape. Yes, Douglas could look like total crap when he was in poor shape, which often times came with a poor mental makeup, but he could look excellent too. His biggest problem was that he was often discouraged quite easily, and pressure made him fold, but for a big man, he moved very well, had a good jab, and was one of the few big heavyweights that almost always threw combinations. Douglas was nothing special because of his inconsistency but I think technically he had the goods.
     
  10. Kalasinn

    Kalasinn ♧ OG Kally ♤ Full Member

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    To me you are, personally i think "Heart" & "Courage" are very similar concepts.

    Lets look at the definition for "Courage":

    "a quality of spirit that enables you to face danger or pain without showing fear"
    (Sounds awfully like "Heart" to me.)

    Now lets have a gander at the definition for "Discouraged":

    "discourage - deprive of courage or hope; take away hope from; cause to feel discouraged"

    Hence i feel that being "discouraged" is quite the opposite to showing "Heart".
     
  11. lefthook31

    lefthook31 Obsessed with Boxing banned

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    The fact that Frazier had a good support system in his corner and was coming into the fight with real boxing people makes a big difference in my opinion. Tyson was going into these fights with buddies from his youth and messing around during training camp.
    Thats why we saw a more determined fighter in the Ruddock fights when he was faced with adversity, because he was being prepared by a real boxing trainer. Training camp is not just a day in day out physical grind to prepare for a fight, its a mental journey as well.
     
  12. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I agree with you. But who is in your corner doesn't actually change the possibilities that lie inside of you. It's possible that Tyson can't reach his mental maximum, for want of a better phrase (And that is a clunky phrase,not to be taken to seriously) due to his corner, but his mental make-up is still there...Tyson's mental limitations betray his physical possibilities.
     
  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I'm attacking Tyson's mental discipline.
     
  14. Kalasinn

    Kalasinn ♧ OG Kally ♤ Full Member

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    Good post, & like Cus said:

    "Boxing is 80% mental."
     
  15. Kalasinn

    Kalasinn ♧ OG Kally ♤ Full Member

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    His mental discipline was of Spartan cloth, when supremely conditioned mentally & physically under Rooney & under Giachetti* too.


    *Pre-Prison, since i already explained how unjust jailtime mentally ruined him.