Plausible Reasons for Sonny Liston's Tank Job

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Il Duce, Jan 20, 2011.


  1. Il Duce

    Il Duce Boxing Addict Full Member

    6,972
    43
    Nov 18, 2010
    Whether the fight was on the up-n-up or not, there are many plausible reasons why this happened.

    Think outside the box, if you post a comment.

    Of course this issue has been beaten to death, but I am putting several
    'possible scenario's in the pictorial book.

    1)
    No casualty company would underwrite any fight with Sonny Liston involved in it.
    That meant, anyone who wanted to promote a fight with Sonny Liston,
    would put all the investment money at risk, with no loss protection.
    No bond company would underwrite anything with Sonny Liston
    associated with it.

    Sonny Liston, as a World Champion and as a Contender in a Title Fight,
    was basically uninsureable.

    Though it wasn't Sonny Listons fault the November 16, 1964 fight in
    Boston was cancelled, still with him being involved, their was a net loss
    of $450,000+.

    In the Life and Casualty Bond Companies, Sonny Liston's name had a phrase attached to it.
    'Underwrite a Fight with Sonny, and the Company Will Lose Money, Honey'.

    Without an underwriter to put up a Bond or Insure the Bout, that
    meant, unless you were 'cash rich', you couldn't promote a 'big money'
    fight.

    2)
    Escrow money. The LSG and Cassius Clay (before name change) had to put $150,000 of their February 1964
    Fight Purse in escrow, to guarantee a return-bout.
    Inter-Continental Promotions was the holder of that account.

    One scenario was that I-C-P and Sonny Liston got to keep that money, as result of
    Muhammad Ali pulling out of the November 16th bout in Boston.

    Another one was, I-C-P and Sonny Liston got to keep the money and not reimburse LSG and
    Muhammad Ali the $150,000, in return for a non-threatening performance in Lewiston, Maine.
     
  2. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    18,285
    391
    Jan 22, 2010
    A good probable reason : Sonny didn't want to sleep with the fishes .
     
  3. red cobra

    red cobra Loyal Member Full Member

    38,042
    7,523
    Jul 28, 2004
    This:good
     
  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    112,151
    46,319
    Mar 21, 2007
    Yeah, that's the only one that really sells it to me. He was owned by the mafia, that's not really in dispute. He was attracting trouble like a lightning rod. His two principal owners were both in serious trouble with the law, hence, money troubles, and mafia was basically about to cash out its boxing interests.

    Add it all up.
     
  5. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

    58,748
    21,557
    Nov 24, 2005
    Is there much evidence that mobsters continued to control Liston after the early 60s ?

    (I guess Il Duce can help us out here)
     
  6. Il Duce

    Il Duce Boxing Addict Full Member

    6,972
    43
    Nov 18, 2010
    3)
    Sports Vision, Inc. (the closed circuit broadcaster and major financial arm) had
    calculated that an Ali Vs. Patterson Title Fight would gross 5x more than
    any possible Sonny Liston vs. an opponent combination, including a possible
    Liston vs. Clay (Ali) III.

    4)
    All State Boxing Commissions (privately) wanted Sonny Liston and his under-world connections out. His group was bringing to much heat on everyone involved in boxing.
     
  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    112,151
    46,319
    Mar 21, 2007
    Yeah, loads and loads and loads. And loads.
     
  8. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

    58,748
    21,557
    Nov 24, 2005
    Care to elaborate ?
     
  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    112,151
    46,319
    Mar 21, 2007
    Nah :lol:
     
  10. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

    58,748
    21,557
    Nov 24, 2005
    At least we have Il Duce.
    Someone who actually knows something about Liston. :good
     
  11. Kalasinn

    Kalasinn ♧ OG Kally ♤ Full Member

    18,318
    53
    Dec 26, 2009
    Keep up the great Liston info Il Duce. :good
     
  12. Il Duce

    Il Duce Boxing Addict Full Member

    6,972
    43
    Nov 18, 2010
    I wouldn't go as far to say Sonny Liston was controlled by anyone.
    Was he associated with some of the 'underworld types',,,, yes.
    I would say he was 'advised' by some factions of the 'syndicate'.

    There is a link between St. Louis/Chicago/Philadelphia.

    With the Chicago-base calling the shots, on an 'advisory-basis'.

    It is apparent, that after the Ali - Liston II fight, he was pretty much on his own
    in Denver.
     
  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    112,151
    46,319
    Mar 21, 2007
    It's been done, over and over and over again, and it needs referencing, and it's not about boxing, it's about contracts and dates and really it's pretty boring. Not reading about it, but organising it.

    The best one ever was in a thread Janitor started. It was unrelated, Joe Louis if I remember, and it just was pages and pages, Stonehands, Chris and myself. It was fun to do it once, and even to use the residue of those postings, but it's not small thing you ask

    I like Il Duce's posting on Liston too, but he's got a book coming and he's determined that the dive wasn't mafia-specific. It's a very interesting counter-point, but you're unlikely to get an unbiased overview of the mafia involvement, I think.
     
  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    112,151
    46,319
    Mar 21, 2007

    That much, we agree upon.
     
  15. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

    19,404
    277
    Oct 4, 2005
    Has anyone considered:

    5) He got his ass handed to him the first time, and he didn't want to go over another long painful episode, so he decided to lie down?