Plausible Reasons for Sonny Liston's Tank Job

Have you considered that Liston was completely demotivated after Ali delayed the rematch with a Hernia?

Sonny had trained like a demon, getting down to a shredded 208lbs of solid muscle, then the delay meant all his hard work at getting supremely conditioned had went to waste, as had money spent on his training camp.

 

Fair enough. I'd have trouble finding the thread.
I've read every Liston newspaper article I can find from 1960 - '65 on various archives, and while I think he did remain mafia-influenced, the evidence is very unstable.
I mean, with Liston we seem to be looking for it, so the burden of proof is sometimes lowered in his case. But I've also come across a fair few of links between the Dundee brothers and the mobsters that supposedly ran boxing, but they and Clay are never deemed to be mob-owned as such.

On the other hand, I've clearly missed the masses of damning evidence that janitor, Chris, stonehands, yourself et al must have uncovered. And maybe Il Duce has too.
I'll keep looking. :good

 

Hey Man Duce, why won't you call him his name, man?

 

No, we are talking about the first one.

 

That makes sense.
But I'm thinking before the Clay/Ali fights, how much control did mobsters retain over him ?
If Carbo and Palermo, or men of their ilk, could carry on "owning" Liston (which I don't discount for a second), I wonder if they ever had to give up any fighter. I mean, Liston, of all fighters, was the biggest liability, because of his status (heavyweight champion) and because he was a police target and considered a menace in his own right.
And he wasn't even as profitable as he should have been.
If they were owning him behind a buffer, who knows if they carried on owning lots of boxers.

I guess we'll never know. They call it organized crime for good reason.

 

I'm open-minded. I don't believe anything in particular on the matter, at present. I'm still seeking the facts.

I'm sure some would consider an option (c) The Grey was genuinely harrassed out of the picture by those dirty, nosy, meddling senate investigation commitee mother****ers and their allies in the boxing commissions ....
Otherwise we're saying that he's virtually untouchable, which is patently untrue because he's behind bars for boxing-related racketeering offences.

I never did follow this accusation you level at me.
But I kind of like it. :good

 

I've neither uncovered nor seen any damning evidence. The thing about this issue is that it's not black-and-white. Was the mob involved? Was it a coincidence that he got the decision against Summerlin twice, when many thought he didn't? Maybe, maybe not. The fact that he didn't get the verdict against Marshall would suggest not. When asked "Was he involved with shady figures?" about any heavyweight champion, for 90% of them the answer will be "yes" one way or another. Boxing is a corrupt sport.

For instance, I don't doubt that Carnera had his ties with the Mob as well. But at the same time, his major wins as a champion (and losses) seem to be on the level. So, it's not a big deal to me. The same may be true for Liston. No one knows for sure.

The only thing that is certain to me is that the first fight was on the level. Liston fought with malicious intent and put everything he had behind those shots. Unlike what most think, he tagged Clay a good few times, too. If good old Cassius was so durable, he may well have been hurt or knocked down. At this point in time, Clay was considered to have a weak jaw though - having been knocked down by Banks and nearly out by Cooper - so there's no way Liston would've been swinging that hard if he had orders to lose. Nor would they try to blind him when things weren't going their way (yes, I know that it may not have been intentional).

Yes I had that in mind and it only makes the argument that he said "**** it, this man is crazy" stronger.

 

Jimmy Braddock was heavily mobbed-up too.
Jersey Joe's manager was a proper criminal.

I don't think he was necessarily throwing his best punches in there. I don't see that on the film.

 

It's a common thing. A statement like "Liston had ties with the Mob!" really doesn't prove or disproves anything.

I don't want to go over the entire thing, but I watched a random moment of the fight on this video:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14m_-kALStA[/ame]

At 8:24, Liston ducks and throws a short, HARD left hook. That hook landing would've put most heavies on the seat of the pants or worse. You want to tell me that wasn't thrown with bad intentions, and very good technique?

 

Malcolm X was bumped off by the NOI on February 21, 1965. Sonny's rematch with Ali came on May 25. I'm among those who believes Liston, when he told his wife Gerry that while the knockdown was indeed legitimate, the knockout was not. He had no great incentive to try to get up and win following that assassination. Was there a prearrangement Sonny agreed to? There didn't necessarily have to be. If the NOI could murder Malcolm, then they could just as easily dispatch Liston. No matter how tough Sonny was, he wasn't bullet proof.