Plausible Reasons for Sonny Liston's Tank Job

I've just never believed that either Ali-Liston fight was on the level...this just adds to the mysterious aura of Sonny Liston.

 

The faster and younger man with better stamina. No amount of preparation and motivation would have allowed Sonny to overcome the deficits he had in speed and reflexes. Eddie Machen, following his draw with Cleveland Williams said, "In a way, he's tougher to fight than Liston, because he has the speed the other doesn't have. You can't walk around Cleveland the way you can Liston." Ali had speed even a peak Williams couldn't approach.

In 1965, Sonny would have been five years slower than he was when Machen took him the limit. Ali's height and reach were more along the lines of the Big Cat, whose long arms posed some issues for Sonny in the early going of both their bouts. (Most of Sonny's reach was in his collarbone. His arms were not quite as long from end of collarbone to end of fist as is commonly supposed.)

I just paused in the midst of composing this post to review Liston-Williams I & II. Big Cat took the opening round of each bout, but with markedly different tactics. In their first match, Cleveland won the opening stanza with aggression, and the speed of his multiple hooks. For the second fight, he carried the first three minutes by keeping it at long range, and out jabbed Sonny with his superior height, speed and longer arms. Williams did not have Ali's durability, jab or mobility, and properly executing his best punch necessitated coming within range of Liston's firepower. He didn't have the sort of long straight right Muhammad complemented his own jab with.

Prior to the controversial ending in Lewiston, Ali was flying around the ring clockwise, repeatedly forcing Sonny to reset himself. One area where Foreman was vastly superior to Liston was in cutting off the ring. Sonny never really learned how to do this, something not typically necessary for him with his jab. Best for best, I can't see Liston doing much better against Ali than losing a clear UD.

 

To me, he just abruptly came of age on February 25, 1964, much as Holmes did near the conclusion of the opening round in Shavers I. Sometimes, that quantum leap of improvement occurs all at once. (I don't know that I've ever seen an upgrade in quality quite as drastic as that of Holmes from Arrington to Shavers I though.)

 

What if : When Sonny Liston fought Ali in 1964-1965,Liston who was supposedly born in
1932 [probably before]was 32-3 years old.Ali was 22-23 at that time. So Sonny was on the downside, while Ali was in his best years.
What if their ages were reversed. Would the 33 year old Ali of the Frazer fight in the Phillipines,then lick the 23-4 year old terror that was then Liston ?
We today tend to forget these valid points when we compare fighters...What say you ?

 

He'd probably have at least one early loss, just like Liston had. And he would have been older when he got his title shot (or in jail for refusing induction).

 

Interesting one. Don't know if I have seen that scenario before, strangely enough.

This would be a fight. Ali wouldn't move much, but rather duke it out properly. The 225 lbs Ali of Manilla wasn't nearly as quick as 22 year old Clay, but he was strong as hell and could punch. And he was as tough and hardened as they come. In the end I think his superior ring generalship and indominatable will to win would see him win.

 

You keep coming up with goods.:good

 

I think the fix was in, and I think several parties were probably involved.

 

So B, what you are saying the 33year old Ali of Manilla would have licked
the 24 year old Liston who was the scourge of the heavyweights in 1956.!
Hmm. I think not.
My point is when we compare fighters ,it should take into ACCOUNT what ages tgey were when they met. For example Ali lost to a Leon Spinks,but we disregard this loss on account of age..Why not so with Liston [at least 33-4],
and Ali 24 years old..Emotions take hold in boxing lore, rather than cold
facts, methinks...

 

Sonny was totally intimidated,and confused with Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali. Simples.....!!!!!