Could Leonard beat a prime Hagler?

Speaking of Juan Roldan,,,,,,,,,,,,another fighter who would have walked through
Ray Leonard.

Roldan was not afraid to get hit, and carried good right hand power.
Leonard's punches would have not slowed him down.

 

I can honestly say that I haven't seen such accumulated stupidity in a thread in this forum before. That's a pretty arrogant statement, I know, but much of what have been said in this thread is really beneath Classic.

 

:good

 

No. But he came back, meaning he had a change of heart one way or the other.
It's a matter of historical record than not until '86 did any talk of coming back on his part feature Hagler.

Yes.
But since you mention it, Leonard did announce his comeback soon after the Hagler-Duran fight, but he didn't go straight in with Hagler.
Leonard talked about wanting two non-title fights and didn't mention Hagler, Arum was talking about a four-fight package culminating in Hagler.

No. I never said it was irrelevant. But it's clearly not the whole reason.
He didn't see any fights out there that he could be motivated for. And with the eye thing, it matters, but you don't forget fear of going blind within a year.
Turns out, he had a change of heart anyway and he came back.
It happend again in '86, as an immediate revelation that he could beat Hagler.

Why do you say "he took a year off to mend the injury" ? Sounds like you're even more sceptical about his retirements than I am.
All I've said is that he "always planned to fight Hagler", obviously those plans were limited by outside events that he had no control over, including how devastating Hagler was looking to him.

Lalonde wasn't "immediately" after Hagler.
I've never claimed Leonard was close to his prime.
I do know that he felt he could get himself in shape to beat the '86/'87 Hagler with a year's training.
These are the facts.

I'm not arguing against Leonard being a rusty, inactive blown-up welterweight fighter who'd never fought at middleweight before.
I'm not making any alibis for Hagler on that score.
You seem to be lumping me with a load of garbage I've never implied.

Having said that, Leonard seemed to think he was pretty close to his prime :

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Ridiculous. When was there ever clamour for Leonard to fight Camaacho. It was never a big fight.
And Leonard has never said anything to suggest what you say.

From 1981 onwards, Leonard-Hagler was the biggest fight in boxing.

Obviously, he didn't play a "waiting game" because how the hell did he know if Hagler was going to lose to someone else or not. But he did always wanted to beat Hagler (says so himself, plus the whole world was talking about it), and he did also realise he could beat Hagler in '86 at the Mugabi fight (says so himself, and went into training soon after).

No, it doesn't.
But since we know Leonard only "beat" Hagler by the narrowest margin and with a "rounds-stealing" strategy ..... and if we are to assume he bases this strategy on what he saw in Hagler-Mugabi .... I think it's fair to guess that he couldn't see a winning strategy in his prime, he didn't have the tools.

 

The circular logic has really gone off the deep end this time. The argument favoring Hagler seems to be:

Leonard left the game in 1983, because he knew he couldn't beat a champion in another division who's career had nothing to do with his own.. Leonard spent 5 years of his prime and youth in hiding, intentionally waiting for this other champion to show signs of deterioration, while not being the least bit concerned about his own abilities erroding away in the interim. Upon seeing Hagler struggle a bit against Mugabi, Leonard knew this was his moment of opportunity, so he bulked up in weight and laced up the gloves, against the advice and wishes of his family, fans and the experts, then defeated Marvin in a controversial affair, that he probably shouldn't have won, hence concluding that he only felt safe facing him in 1987, and didn't feel that way in 1983, resulting in the ultimate conclusion - Hagler beats Leonard prime for prime...

 

okay.

 

Simply put, Hagler was not prime, but neither was Leonard. Leonard could arguably be the fresher man, due to the time out the ring and relatively lowered level of wear and tear, perhaps, actually benefitting him to face a Hagler that had dulled reflexes and whose legs weren't the same anymore. Yes, Hagler's chin is ATG tough, but as far as I'm concerned, no man takes the kind of shots he took from Hearns and Mugabi after all the wear and tear that comes with being a top, top fighter for as long as Hagler was, without it having some sort of accumulative negative effect on your body's ability to do what the brain tells it to. You know when fighters say, "I can see the punch but I can't pull the trigger anymore", I'm not saying that Hagler was there, but of course he had slipped. However, he was an active fighter, less active than he once had been, but still active enough. Here's the thing for me, Leonard's inactivity, I've heard argued, allowed him to be fresher. How?

Anyone's that been an athlete knows how even a four month period away from training consistently has a negative effect. I don't care what anybody says, there's no way that one fight in 3 years can prepare you to face arguably the greatest MW champion of all time, especially considering he's at his natural weight class and more importantly, that Leonard was coming up in weight to fight him. As disadvantaged as Hagler was in terms of his speed and reflexes compared to his absolute prime, he hadn't lost a fight in how many years? Leonard, regardless of being 'the media darling' had a lot more to overcome for my money, physically, than Hagler did.

Leonard's style would always trouble Hagler, who IMO, cannot outbox with him due to hand and footspeed, but has to impose his will on him, break him down to the body and kill the legs. I'd favour Hagler prime for prime, simply cos Leonard was a natural welter, but Leonard was the better fighter, with the better calibre of performance against the very best, IMO. I just have a feeling that Leonard has the smarts, skillset and the grit to pull out the shock victory, especially with a Petronelli corner, who I do believe could, perhaps, get the tactics wrong. In no way am I discrediting Hagler, as I rate him so very highly, but the more I read and the more footage I watch of each, the more I can see Hagler falling into the trap of allowing the judges the opportunity to award the fight to Leonard.

 

A well reasoned view.

 

Yes. But how about this: He has to take a break to operate his retina and then comes back against Kevin Howard. It seems reasonable that this was only meant as a tune up fight befor going after larger prey. Rematch with Hearns, rubbermatch with Duran, Hagler on the horizon... There were several big money fights that could be made. But he didn't impress against Howard and this could very well be because of the documented problems in his private life. That he just didn't feel the spark and motivation anymore.

Leonard is a smart man. He would have known that without that spark, the only thing that awaited him was probably a humiliating loss once he stepped up against real opposition, so he retired once more. After a couple of years something perhaps stirred in him again, the need for a challenge. He sees Hagler against Mugabi and notices that he has started to slip. That makes beating Hagler at least a possible feat (only in Leonard's mind, though - few else think so). He has a great challenge, but one that he feels now is possible and that rejuvenates him.

Can't say for sure that it happened like this either. But it certainly seems the most plausible scenario. The easiest explanation is after all the one that in most cases is true.

 

He left the game in '82 because there were no big fights out there that he could win, and he had an eye injury and millions of dollars already.

Saying Hagler's career had nothing to do with his own is like saying Mayweather's career currently has nothing to do with Pacquiao's.
Apart from the fact that they represent each other's biggest financial opportunity.

You talk as if the idea of Leonard vs Hagler didn't even occur to anyone in 1982.
You need to do some research.

No, that would be impossible.
He simply never lost sight of the fact that coming back to beat Hagler could earn him $10 million + and tons of kudos.
You think at 29 or 30 years of age he's going to forget that ?
He always had that niggling desire and dream to beat Hagler, and has been saying so since 1986.

Well, that all happened, yeah.

The facts and the statements that were backed up with facts tend to support that too.

I have enough respect for Sugar Ray Leonard to know he was an intelligent and calculating man who had a brilliant sense of his career options up until his last few fights when he went the same way as most do. I believe he struggled with Kevin Howard because he lacked motivation. I believe he chose the absolute right and only strategy to beat Hagler, and chose Hagler at the right time. I believe he had good reason to pass up a Hagler fight in '83 or '84

You seem to have nothing to say but ridicule and distort what I've been saying.
:good

 

Agreed.

I think the real point was brought up by you a page ago. What weight is this fight at? MW? What weight would SRL come in at? Could he deal with such a disadvantage in weight? The thing is... SRL was past it sure but maybe this was the best suited SRL's to face Hagler. Merely because of his new found size and strength. It's just a theory. That could be what people are factoring in... "Hagler in his prime going against a fighter 10 lbs lighter? He'd Kill Him!"

One thing not mentioned is why no one talks about SRL use of steroids before the Hagler fight. Didn't he admit to this? It's such a big serious thing in this Pac-Floyd feud that people think it legitimately discredits accomplishments. Bonds, Clemons, etc but nobody ever talks about SRL. Is it because it's unproven? I thought he admitted to this...

 

My comments were not just directed at you, and the general sentiment of people favoring Hagler seem to point to that statement.

 

this thread..just...wow..

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Marvelous Magoo, Marvelous! :happy