American Hype jobs starring Devon and Tim in Coming soon!!!!

WatchfortheHook · Jan 30, 2011

bailey said: ↑

Think of it this way before Bradley beat Alexander he was rated as a P4P fighter by the bias Ring magazine, so consider it this way if I compare Bradley to a pre Calzaghe, Kessler.

Not in order of who they fought and when but comparing results and showing how bias things are

Bradley went to the UK and beat Witter for his WBC title, a good away win for Bradley, by SD
Kessler beat Siaca for his WBA SMW belt. A clear inside the distance victory
Overall a Better result for Bradley

Bradley then defends against Edner Cherry
Kessler beats Mudine away who was a world rated fighter and former champ who after losing to Kessler becomes champ again
Overall a better result for Kessler

Bradley has a unification fight with K Holt being knocked down twice and getting a close decision.
Kessler has a unification fight with Beyer a far more established world champion and wins in the 3rd round
Overall a better result for Kessler

Bradley beats old Nate Campbell from a lower division
Kessler beat old Lucas from his division
A close one 50/50

Bradley beats undefeated Peterson
Kessler beats undefeated Andrade
A better win for Kessler

By now Bradley is rated as a P4P fighter and Kessler as a European nobody who hasnt fought in America
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I'm not going to argue about Kessler/Bradley, but it's subjective, like many arguments on ESB....

for instance:
"Kessler beats Mundine away who was a world rated fighter and former champ who after losing to Kessler becomes champ again"

That world champion Mundine also just got KO'd by 9-1 Garth Woods after having won the belt in a tough fight with Geale he defended against weak opposition. So while I also would rank beating Mundine higher than beating Cherry, I don't consider Mundine a world beater either.

or:

"Bradley beats undefeated Peterson
Kessler beats undefeated Andrade
A better win for Kessler"

To me, I call this even, from my perspective. Andrade is more or less a tough as they come gatekeeper. He was decimated by Kessler, in his first fight with Bute he was WAY down on the cards before the contraversy, and in the second fight he was down on the cards as well before being taken out. He was impressive in his win over Stieglitz. Peterson still only has the 1 loss to Bradley and obviously hasn't been as completely overwhelmed as he was with Bradley. I'll call the comparison even simply because Andrade while being dominated by top level competition does have a nice win against Stieglitz, Peterson, while not having a top level win drew with Ortiz, and hasn't been completely dominated in Andrade-type fashion outside of Bradley.

To me, it seems to be splitting hairs here. Kessler might not have been ranked top 10 p4p, but he had a lot of hype to and a lot of respect from American fans. Compared to someone like Alexander, I think Bradley's career has been more substance than hype. He didn't win vacant belts, he took belts from champions. As you already mentioned he went to England as a relative unknown and took Witter's belt from him. So he made his name the old-fashion way.

Gneus7 · Jan 30, 2011

bailey said: ↑

Think of it this way before Bradley beat Alexander he was rated as a P4P fighter by the bias Ring magazine, so consider it this way if I compare Bradley to a pre Calzaghe, Kessler.

Not in order of who they fought and when but comparing results and showing how bias things are

Bradley went to the UK and beat Witter for his WBC title, a good away win for Bradley, by SD
Kessler beat Siaca for his WBA SMW belt. A clear inside the distance victory
Overall a Better result for Bradley

Bradley then defends against Edner Cherry
Kessler beats Mudine away who was a world rated fighter and former champ who after losing to Kessler becomes champ again
Overall a better result for Kessler

Bradley has a unification fight with K Holt being knocked down twice and getting a close decision.
Kessler has a unification fight with Beyer a far more established world champion and wins in the 3rd round
Overall a better result for Kessler

Bradley was beating old Nate Campbell from a lower division but the fight ended as a NC due to an illegal headbutt
Kessler beat old Lucas from his division
A better result for Kessler

Bradley beats undefeated Peterson
Kessler beats undefeated Andrade
A better win for Kessler

By now Bradley is rated as a P4P fighter and Kessler as a European nobody who hasnt fought in America
Click to expand...

That just means Kessler was under-rated by the Ring, not Bradley is over hyped.

Caliboxing · Jan 30, 2011

Bradley is not a hypejob. He has beaten good fighters and has been champion for a while now. Alexander was hyped without much under his belt, but he's still a decent fighter. I don't think he has the mentality of a champion though.

The style clash made the fight kind of ugly, but not as bad as some are making it to be.

bailey · Jan 30, 2011

WatchfortheHook said: ↑

I'm not going to argue about Kessler/Bradley, but it's subjective, like many arguments on ESB....

for instance:
"Kessler beats Mundine away who was a world rated fighter and former champ who after losing to Kessler becomes champ again"

That world champion Mundine also just got KO'd by 9-1 Garth Woods after having won the belt in a tough fight with Geale he defended against weak opposition. So while I also would rank beating Mundine higher than beating Cherry, I don't consider Mundine a world beater either.

Click to expand...

Consider that Kessler beat Mundine, away and you saying Mundine has just been beaten by a novice but fail to note that it is over 5 years later and Mundine hadnt lost in that time racking up 17 wins and a world title, and also dont mention the loss is in another division atsch.
Theres alot you forgot to mention there

or:

"Bradley beats undefeated Peterson
Kessler beats undefeated Andrade
A better win for Kessler"

To me, I call this even, from my perspective. Andrade is more or less a tough as they come gatekeeper. He was decimated by Kessler, in his first fight with Bute he was WAY down on the cards before the contraversy, and in the second fight he was down on the cards as well before being taken out. He was impressive in his win over Stieglitz. Peterson still only has the 1 loss to Bradley and obviously hasn't been as completely overwhelmed as he was with Bradley. I'll call the comparison even simply because Andrade while being dominated by top level competition does have a nice win against Stieglitz, Peterson, while not having a top level win drew with Ortiz, and hasn't been completely dominated in Andrade-type fashion outside of Bradley.

Click to expand...

So Peterson has been dominated then also and couldnt beat Ortiz, whilst Andrade has a win over a current world champion. Also once again lets look at the whole story Andrade has now beaten Mack and Tsypko, not to mention beating world rated O Grant on the way to fighting Kessler

To me, it seems to be splitting hairs here. Kessler might not have been ranked top 10 p4p,
Click to expand...

Thats the point Kessler had been more impressive barely losing a round compared to Bradleys SD wins and coming off the floor twice to Holt who was stopped in his very next fight, yet Kessler wasnt even considered which shows the bias

but he had a lot of hype to and a lot of respect from American fans. Compared to someone like Alexander, I think Bradley's career has been more substance than hype. He didn't win vacant belts, he took belts from champions. As you already mentioned he went to England as a relative unknown and took Witter's belt from him. So he made his name the old-fashion way.
Click to expand...

At that time Kessler hadnt won any vacant belts either and had defended away. The old fashioned way as you called it.
If you look at what you said about Bradleys career being more substance than hype then Kesslers must have been also on that bases if you look at the results and how Kessler was also more impressive on the way to Calzaghe.

Kessler was an example which shows how bias things are
Click to expand...

WatchfortheHook · Jan 30, 2011

bailey said: ↑

Consider that Kessler beat Mundine, away and you saying Mundine has just been beaten by a novice but fail to note that it is over 5 years later and Mundine hadnt lost in that time racking up 17 wins and a world title, and also dont mention the loss is in another division atsch.
Theres alot you forgot to mention there

So Peterson has been dominated then also and couldnt beat Ortiz, whilst Andrade has a win over a current world champion. Also once again lets look at the whole story Andrade has now beaten Mack and Tsypko, not to mention beating world rated O Grant on the way to fighting Kessler

Thats the point Kessler had been more impressive barely losing a round compared to Bradleys SD wins and coming off the floor twice to Holt who was stopped in his very next fight, yet Kessler wasnt even considered which shows the bias

At that time Kessler hadnt won any vacant belts either and had defended away. The old fashioned way as you called it.
If you look at what you said about Bradleys career being more substance than hype then Kesslers must have been also on that bases if you look at the results and how Kessler was also more impressive on the way to Calzaghe.

Kessler was an example which shows how bias things are
Click to expand...

First, I never said it was more substance over style THAN Kessler's career. I said it was more substance over hype compared to guys like Ortiz, Alexander, etc. Guys who got hype without doing anything.

Regarding my arguments, I was simply pointing out that everything can be twisted to fit an agenda. I am aware of Mundine's accomplishments...I still don't consider him to be around someone of Kessler's caliber. Guys of Kessler's caliber don't lose to 17-4 Manny Siaca (Kessler beat the **** out of him 2 fights later), don't get KO'd by a 9-1-1 fighter who's life was in total disarray, and fighters like Kessler don't get KO'd by a featherfisted fighter (Kessler's chin is underrated). I know you like Ottke, but he isn't scoring a KO on Kessler. I'm aware of Mundine's talents and accomplishments, and consider it a bigger win than Cherry rather easily, however just as I "forgot" to list the things you wanted to list, you "forgot" to paint the whole picture as well.

Andrade beat Mack, great. Mack has never beaten anyone of note. He's lost to Berrio, to Johnson, and Andrade all via KO. He's a known gasser. And while Andrade did beat Stieglitz...Steiglitz had also already been KO'd within 3 to Berrio. Not saying that Mack is a BAD fighter, but he's a gatekeeper. He is what he is. I can't really comment on Typsko, I haven't seen enough of him to comment. Having seen a few of Otis Grant's fights, I was never really overly impressed by what he had to offer. What I will say about the actual fight between Kessler and Andrade was it was a good win for Kessler, he was totally dominant and I'm not trying to be dismissive of his win over Andrade(who I'm a big fan of in spite of all his flaws). Andrade could find him and couldn't break his will like he can against lesser opponents. However, I'm assuming you've seen Andrade fight and that you know about his immense weaknesses, Kessler was rightly favored to win that fight.

You also have to take into consideration, that Kessler being 39-0 was a long time ago and the scene was far different back then. Bradley probably wouldn't have made the top 10 when Kessler was 39-0 as well. Calzaghe is retired, fringe top 10 guys like Calderon and Hasegawa have had brutal losses and Israel Vazquez is gone. Hatton's retired, etc. The scene is mostly different and that's partly why there's guys in the top 10 that make people scratch their heads (like when Paul Williams was ranked highly).

My main point, outside of the multiple tangents, is that Tim isn't a hype job. A hype job is a guy who's been given an inbalance of hype compared to what he has accomplished, it mainly happens when a network wants to try to corner the market on what they hope is a future star. Tim never had a golden spoon in his mouth, he made the most of his opportunity seizing the victory against Witter. He had no early hype, he had to earn it. That's the main point... I don't really care if you believe Kessler's career is better, that's fine, you could very well be right. I'm just saying Tim isn't a hype-job (and neither is Kessler).

Also, just an aside, you made a slight error claiming Bradley got and SD victory over Kendall Holt....Bradley earned a unanimous decision in spite of being knocked down twice. The reason? It was a pretty much a landslide victory outside of the 2 knockdown rounds.
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American Hype jobs starring Devon and Tim in Coming soon!!!!

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