Prime: Jim Jefferies .vs. Jack Johnson

Much is made of Jeffries better performences vs common opponents.

Perhaps too much given that they were both relativley green when they met the same men (Jeffries greener in most cases).

One man that they did both meet around their prime was Jack Munroe. Both of them handed him a one sided beating, but Jeffries disposed of him much more quickly. It must also be noted that Muroe came into the Jeffries fight well conditioned and was overweight for Johnson.

The opther opponent where you could make a case for both being at their best is Bob Fitzsimmons, but he had clearly declined a lot by the time he met Johnson.

In the end we are left with Munroe as a common barometer and it dosn't tell us much!

 

I don't think it tells us anything.
Johnson seldom went for the finish ,and though Munroe was not in top shape versus Johnson, neither was Johnson.

 

You are correct in saying it was the sports writers who campaigned for Johnson to recieve a title shot,editorials such as " The Color Line Does Not Go Anymore" ,were common.
They may have had an agenda, but equally ,they may have wanted to see Jeffries in the ring against a man in his prime ,not a retired ,former great making a comeback. And see Jeffries against a man near his own size.
If Johnson was not the stand out challenger ,who was?
Jeffries got a break because Johnson was black, if Jack had been white ,public opinion would have demanded he fight him.
Jeffries received enough stick for avoiding Johnson as it was.
Jeffries was paranoid about the chances of losing his title to a black man ,and many times said so.
You can make the case that Johnson was the second real world Champ after Tommy Burns who did eventually face him.
Sullivan ,and Corbett ducked Jackson, Fitz did not face a black Challenger whilst Champ ,and neither did Hart.
Ironically Johnson himself, drew the colour line when he became champ , $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Talks loudest.

 

No disrespect but the Johnson posts you made are Johnson 101 and have been made dozens of times here ... I am cutting to the chase and focusing on why Johnson , in the biggest fight of his career and in his physical prime could not decisively defeat Marvin Hart, a gutsy, aggressive, strong but clearly limited fighter .. you say he may have putpointed him and he may have but all reports say the fight was competitive through out ...

To say Johnson fought below his ability in such an important fight, one against a top white contender, a bout that he wanted so badly for so long and knew was so important to his career is to give Johnson a pass and not be honest about his limitations as a fighter ... either he could not handle pressure fighters or he was mentally weak .. either one shows major *****s in his armor ... I say that he fought to his ability against that style and that Jeffries, who was far stronger, better conditioned, harder hitting and faster than Hart would have been a terrible match up for a Johnson that liked to throw twenty punches a round and hold and clinch ... he would have had to fight at a more substancial pace than he liked and that would have made his vulnerable chin a target ... the same chin that Choynsky crushed, Gunboat wrecked in sparring, that Jim Johnson badly dented in Paris and of course that Willard took advantage of ... there is no question that Johnson, like a Roy Jones, won because of his defense and skill and minimzed his chin .. I'm not saying he had a glass jaw but he did not have a terrific one either .. it was definitely not a strong point for him ..

 

I dispute that Johnson was in his prime, I have showed he was some way short of his optimum weight,Johnson was a late developer ,unlike say Jeffries, who was the opposite.

Choynski knocked Johnson down with a hook to the temple, not the chin,the authorities stopped it before he was counted out,though he no doubt would have been.
Gunboat Smith knocked Johnson through the ropes whilst sparring with him he did not wreck him in any way whatsoever.
Jim Johnson was crude but a big puncher, and Johnson was 35, and not in good shape, his fault, but still.
Willard took advantage of ? Yes he did ,but it took him 26rds to do it,and Johnson was 37,three years older than Jeffries was when Johnson beat him.

Which pressure fighters did Johnson not handle?
Mnetally weak? I think,with all respect this is laughable.
I believe Johnson to be as strong mentally as any man who ever held the Heavyweight Title.

Johnson's chin was not glass,or anything like it ,otherwise ,Langford,McVey,Kaufmann,Moran would have exposed it, instead of which ,none of them even floored him, none of them even buzzed him.
Willard eventually wore Johnson down after absorbing copius amounts of punishment, Johnson who had not been in top shape for 5 years wilted after 26rds in tropical heat.Willard was in the shape of his life , motivated and ready to walk through fire ,he never looked anything like that again.
Buster Douglas v Tyson comes to mind.

You said Johnson was dropped multiple times ,I showed he was not.
Johnson did not have a chin comparable to Jeffries ,but the three you mentioned were all big punchers.
Jeffries stated Choynski was the hardest hitter he faced.
I can only type the facts ,I am not responsible for what others have posted in the past.

 

With regard to the Hart fight:

Too much might be being made of it. Johnsons schedule over that part of his career alone made it likley that he was going to slip up at some point.

I do think that there was a stylistic issue however. Hart probably did have the style to give him fits and I dont just base that on the Hart fight. Langford had him in trouble as well.

 

Langford had Johnson in trouble?
How ? Johnson crucified him, dropping him twice, and, Langford got a long count in at least one of the kd's

 

So I thought for a long time, but when you study the local reports it becomes apparent that it was more competitive than usualy given credit for.

This should come as no surprize to me given Johnsons subsequent reluctance to face Langford in a rematch.

 

Langford himself said he took a real beating ,a fact later endorsed by his manager, Sam Woodman .
Hype Igoe said Johnson eased up on Langford ,after the knockdowns ,and breaking his nose.

 

It seems that Langford hurt Johnson and made him fight a more safety first match as the fight progressed.

I guess that if Johnson had handeled Langford as easily as some reports suggest then he would have fought him again.

 

Langford improved ten fold after 1906. He was stopped in his next fight ,3 months later by Young Peter Jackson, who survived against Johnson by running round the ring , that is when he was not being knocked down.
Johnson halted their fight, and spoke to the audience apologising for the terrible bout, and saying he could not catch the speeding Jackson.
Langford put on 20lbs of muscle after his bout with Johnson,and Johnson 25.

Look at Langford's results at the time, he was not the killer he would become , there are losses ,and plenty of draws on his sheet.
.
A rematch would have been an epic, Johnson said there was not enough money to justify the risk.

Who would win? Jack for me, but both improved markedly after their fight.

Maybe Sam the most.

 

Your ignoring the fact that a 27 year old Johnson with a ton of fights under his belt was a huge disappointment in his biggest , most important bout against a less than stellar opponent. There is simply no way of getting around this other than to say he was an extremely late bloomer which is , of course, a fabrication ... the fact that you refuse to honestly acknowledge this but instead try and gloss over it discounts your legitimacy ... BTW, you're Mendoza, right ?

 

You are of course ,entitled to your opinion.


I don't acknowledge it ,because I do not believe it .

I am not glossing over anything, I only engaged in this debate because you stated Johnson was knocked down multiple times which is not so.

I have no real incentive either way in pursuing it , nor in establishing my legitimacy to you ,or anyone else.

I have heard of this Mendoza ,but he does not seem to post regularly here.
I assure you I am not he.

I think the I's have it

 

He still wouldn't have gotten a title shot. In fact, I'd best on Jack Johnson getting whipped, stripped and lynched by virtue of his keen interest in the icing sugar. Not that it would have made much difference, but they wouldn't have tolerated his behaviour no more than they did a couple of years later. Johnson's lucky it wasn't worse.

 

Great comments from all re:this match but I have to side with Boucher. I think from a stylistic perspective Johnson would win though it would be no walk in the park. One weapon Johnson posessed that would give Jeffries a hard time was a potent jab. He used it to great effect in thier fight in Reno and though Jeffries was way past it he seemed to have no defense against it. A prime Jeffries I'm sure would put up a much tougher fight as he was more mobile for one thing but I think the jab plus Johnson's uncanny reflexes would win it for him, probably by decision though that would be tough taking into account the hatred for Johnson at the time. Would've been a hell of a fight though.