What are some boxing myths that can be broken with FACTS?

The Ring Record Book is way off.

With Inter-Contentinal Promotions (Sonny Liston as an officer), they
pulled in nearly triple Muhammad Ali's share.

Muhammad Ali.... $632,500

Sonny Liston...... $517,500
I-C-P.............. $1,000,000
Escrow Account.. $150,000
Total Gross......{$1,677,500}

PLUS,,,,8 months later Sonny Liston was living in Kirk Kerkorian's house in Las Vegas.

 

J, I repectfully disagree with your wrong assessment of Jack Dempsey and his
legacy. You have, to put it kindly, been mislead, about Jack Dempsey,and his
"picking smaller white fighters"...Wrong, wrong, wrong... Let's look at the record J. Dempsey became champion 1919-1920.
Here is the black contenders he "avoided".
1-Sam Langford, born in 1883 was 36-37 and at the end of his career,and past his prime.
2Joe Jeannette,born 1879,was 40-41 and was retired in 1919.
3 Sam McVey, born 1884,was 40-41 ,was through as a top fighter and retired in 1921.
4-That leaves Harry Wills, born 1889,was 31-32 in 1919-20 and was still a top heavyweight who at that time was young enough to pose a threat to the prime Manassa Mauler. And we discussed the signing, cancellation before, ad nauseum. So pray tell me J, who posed a threat at that time to the younger prime Dempsey,that Jack avoided who had a realistic chance to dethrone him, besides the aformentioned harry Wills ? The trio of Langford, Jeannette, McVey,were all old and on the way out. George Godfrey ,was Dempsey's sparring partner, who was dropped several times sparring with Dempsey.
So, tell me J, who was the "dangerous" black contenders that Jack avoided,and took on smaller unskilled white fighters instead?
Tommy Gibbons was a great fighter, who would have whipped Jake LaMotta
both at their best.Billy Miske was a helluva fighter. Fred Fulton was a large
terrific 6ft.5' puncher. Bill Brennan was a big strong equal probably of a jerry Quarry who kod 48 opponents in 51 wins. Luis angel Firpo , though clumsy was a powerful puncher who could hit. Jess Willard though past his peak was a 6ft6" bull who was NEVER dropped before,Dempsey used him like a yo, yo.
Remember no fighter can pick his date of birth, and the era he fought in. He can ONLY LICK the fighters of his time. No more, no less J. Louis gets a pass,
Ray Robinson gets a pass, and it is about time Dempsey is honestly evaluated
devoid, of political correctness, I say. Yes J, I am passionate about this topic
which doesn't mean I'm wrong...Cheers...

 

another fine post bb. point well taken about the era you're born in. But that's sort of the problem with dempsey. you're right: i've undersold dempsey's competition and there weren't a ton of options out there but wills shouldn't have been an option but a guarantee. the best contender of his era was wills (regardless of colour) and he failed to fight him. i'm of the mindset that in very few circumstances can a fight, especially one as significant as that, not get made if the champ wants to. I've given my favourite fighter roy jones grief for that, and that while he TRIED to fight the best of his era, he didn't try hard enough. i feel dempsey could have fought wills had he wanted to. i may be wrong but that's where i'm leaning. he did the best with the rest of the fighters of his era but they simply don't add up to a great reign. much like wlad klitschko today, he's doing the best that he can. but imagine if frazier never fought ali, walcott never fought marciano or burns never fought johnson? dempsey had that opportunity and for whatever reason it didn't happen. we know wills tried his damnest to make the fight, but can the same be said about dempsey?

 

In all fairness, Jack Johnson had a much worse title reign then Jack Dempsey; and ppl. don't give him as close as much **** they give to Jack Dempsey.
As a title holder he avoided the most dangerous contenders in Langford, Jeannette, Ed Gunboat(who decked him in a sparring session) and McVea.

And while he did beat some of those before his title winning bout, they were young and inexperienced, especially Jeanette.


Unfortunately ppl. will always have this image of the white boxers at the beggiing of last century being protected and having padded records, meanwhile their black counterparts were thrown at the wolves and forced to fight the best since early on...that wasn't the case most of the time.

 

Lovely well conducted debate here lads.

 

Im assuming though that the technique you used was the Fosbury flop though? Its a much more impressive feat to be able to jump 5 ft 10 from a different technique.

 

J,you are beginning to see the light, i believe . Dempsey did not truly have a "slew" of "dangerous " black contenders to logically fight ,when he was starting out as champion. None, zilch, except for Harry Wills who was truly the top contender...This has been established, i believe. Langford, Jeannette, Mcvey were past their peak and long in the tooth. So,J it leaves only ONE
black candidate,and that was Harry Wills. as i posted Tex Rickard, had
legitimate concerns about a match between Wills and Dempsey, because of the terrible race riots,following the Johnson/Jeffries fight in Reno just 10 years before. The climate at that time was FEAR ,to risk a heavyweight fight
again, by rickard and the NY authorities. I have read about this in many boxing articles,from 60 years ago attesting to this fact. To say as some have posted ,"well if Dempsey was so certain of victory,he should have taken the dough ,flattened Wills in 2 rounds, and case closed ". Rioting could have
ensued,whoever won.Of course Dempsey and Wills did sign with an out of town promotor,which was cancelled, as we all know. To now speculate,why the bout was cancelled, is fruitless lo these many decades. So J ,Dempsey
is and should be criticized for not fighting the one truly eligible black contender of that time, who was a viable contender ,in his prime. So why
the myth that still exists,that Dempsey avoided all the black contenders as champion from 1920 on.? It fits an agenda, I truly believe, to this day, ninety
years later. Dempsey fought and beat everyone in his prime, and foolishly
went Hollywood , lived La Dolce Vita, for over 3 years,severed relations,with his mgr. Jack Kearns, and without a tune-up bout tackled ,the great boxer
Gene Tunney twice including the second "long count" fight. In between, Dempsey kod a prime Jack Sharkey. Though a shell of himself at 32,Dempsey,wore down the boston Gob and flattened him with a single left hook. Jack did all right at 32...
So in conclussion j, Louis truly "avoided" more eligible black threats in Lee Q Murray[he could hit], Harry Bobo, Lem Franklin,etc,than Dempsey did. These 3 guys were all in their 20s and primes...
And to repeat again, Ray Robinson,never ever tackled the likes of Charley Burley, Eddie Booker, Coco Kid, Holman Williams, Bert Lytell,etc, each of who was a great threat to upset Ray Robinson, I believe.
So J, I believe I made my case for fairness for Jack Dempsey. He was at his peak never beaten. In 1950 a large group of boxing experts voted Jack Dempsey,as the greatest fighter since 1900 ,by a LARGE margin. They saw
him,and everyone else up to that time,and I put more faith in observers of him,who saw him in his prime, than detractors NINETY YEARS later. The young Dempsey was a force of nature while fighting, and a true gentleman
in retirement.He deserves to be treated fairly, in spite of political correctness
run rampant today...Have a good day J...

 

The times were different then. Guys like Dempsey, even though champions, had different relationship to their promoters and managers than Roy Jones had with his promoters and TV executives.
Dempsey more or less did whatever Kearns thought best, it was an old school manager-fighter relationship. And then when he finally left Kearns (and it took a marriage and a 'meddling wife' for him to get that far !) he ended up fighting whoever Tex Rickard had for him.
He tried to fight Wills with another promoter but the initial check bounced. I think Dempsey would have fought anyone for $1 million. I don't credit Dempsey with being business-savvy enough at that time to actually pick and choose easier fights. If there was any strategy on Dempsey's part to avoid tough fights, he certainly made a mistake fighting Tunney.

 

Wikipedia's description of Ali V Cooper, please advise what's accurate and what's inaccurate;

Cooper fought Muhammad Ali twice, firstly in a non-title fight in 1963 at Wembley Stadium. Cooper did not have a trainer at this time and his own regime led to him losing weight, today Cooper claims lead was inserted in his boots for the weigh in and estimates he actually weighed 12 stone 12 lb[3] making him 27 pounds lighter than Clay, indeed commentator Harry Carpenter sounded somewhat startled by the visible difference in size and remarked on it during the introductions. Some of Cooper's work has been described as 'near the knuckle' during the contest and Clay later complained about being repeatedly hit on the break. In the dying seconds of the fourth round Cooper felled Clay with an upward angled version of his trademark left hook, "Enry's 'Ammer", unfortunately for Cooper his opponent's armpit caught in the ropes going down and he landed in a sitting posture which prevented his head from going back to strike the canvas covered boards which made up the floor of the ring, (something which could easily have knocked him unconscious). Clay - out on his feet - was literally saved by the bell. Clay, clearly dazed, stood up and walked to his corner where his trainer Angelo Dundee guided him onto his stool, and his corner-men used smelling salts to bring him round (which violated the rules.) Dundee has since claimed to have opened small tear in one of Clay's gloves and told the referee that his fighter needed a new pair of gloves, thus delaying the start of the 5th round. Cooper has always insisted that this delay lasted anywhere from 3–5 minutes and denied him the chance to try to knock Clay out while he was still dazed. In tapes of the fight it seems Clay only received an extra six seconds (although there are still doubters who think a longer delay was edited out), and the gloves were not replaced.[4][5][6] When the 5th round started Clay ferociously attacked Cooper's cuts, leaving Cooper's face streaming with blood and referee Tommy Little was forced to stop the fight in the American's favour although Cooper was ahead on the scorecards.

After this fight, a spare pair of gloves was always required at ringside. What is certain however, is that Dundee broke a phial containing an unknown substance and held it under Clay's nose in an effort to revive his man, which was illegal.[7] Clay was obviously impressed by the knockdown and on the 40th anniversary telephoned Cooper to reminisce. Clay who had changed his name to Muhammad Ali in 1964, later said, on British television, that Cooper "had hit him so hard that his ancestors in Africa felt it". In 1966 they met a second time at Highbury in London to contest the world title. Cooper was defeated again by Ali.

 

So, you mean politicians wouldn't take a pro-Wills-Dempsey stance publicly while holding privately that the fight should never happen ?

 

I think banning the Dempsey-Tunney fight in New York in favor of a Dempsey-Wills fight is about as public as you get.

 

Yes, and are you saying they couldn't have been saying something else in private (or at least know that others of their ilk were doing that bit for them) ?

 

I think that is an unfair criticque of Ray Robinson.

Charley Burley was fighting as a middleweight 1942-1950, where he ended his career. Robinson was the welterweight champion 1946-1951 and won the middleweight title in 1951 for the first time.

Eddie Booker was fighting as a middleweight and lightheavyweight and ended his career in 1944. At the time Robinson was a welter and not a champ yet.

Cocoa Kid was a welter contender until 1943. You could argue, that Robinson could have fought him, but is it fair to say that any co-contender not faced should be detracted from his legacy?

Holman Williams was moving up to middleweight permanently in 1942. He ended his career in 1948. He lost his contender status at middle in 1946. The year Robinson finally became champ at welterweight.

Bert Lytell was a middleweight ending his career as a lightheavy 1949-1951. His last fight was eight month after Robinson conquered the middleweight title.

Other champs may have ducked these fighters, but I don't think it is fair to say Robinson did.

 

Myth:

Willard's cheekbone was shattered in 12 places, broke his nose, and his jaw in 13 places had 8 avulsed teeth plus two fractured ribs.

Fact:

Willard was never examined by any physician and could easily give interviews after the fight.