What are some boxing myths that can be broken with FACTS?

I don't know how anyone can say any sparring story is definitely TRUE, unless you were there or have film of it.
In boxing there are a million stories and thousands of story-tellers, and a lot of the men in boxing business are the biggest bullshitters and hype-artists in the world.

If Clay clowning Johansson was viewed by several journalists and reported the same week then we can say it is likely true.
But these "Oh, yes, I was there when ..... " stories that emerge a long time afterwards need to be viewed with scepticism.

I'm not sure which category Clay-Johansson falls in.

 

Several eye witnesses, one of them a writer for Sports Illustrated, saying the same thing is pretty solid IMO. I think there's just a snippet of film of it too.

Anyway, there's hardly any reason to call it a myth.

 

I have film footage of the Clay-Johansson sparring session and the skinny young Clay makes Ingermar look like a rank amateur - not even in the same class - Clay plays with him

 

if this was your first post or first thread on ali, of course not

but "the dots" that I connected are on virtually every thread you contribute to, it's to bash, denigrate or demean ali. this is just the latest is a long line of posts where you don't give him his due

 

Myth confirmed then.

Do you have any possibility of posting it?

 

Oh Stop It,,,,

The story also continued,
Saying right after the 5-minute sparring session, Gil Rogin immediately took a plane back to New York, went right into the Sports Illustrated Offices and told everyone that
this kid was going to be a Champion.

All this, from a 5-minutes staged sparring session, in February 1961.

Yes, there is some stock film footage of the sparring session.
The only thing you can tell, is that a young Cassius Clay is very fast, flying around the ring in a defensive mode.

Harold Conrad help stage that event, and some of the taping was broadcast on
local ABC-TV to help promote the Clay vs. Fleeman fight, held in Miami Beach
later that week.

I don't think by posting opposing views, dictates hatred for Cassius Clay or Muhammad Ali.
This was just a staged/partially filmed sparring session which was done to help promote a
a fight in Miami Beach.
Something which was done many times, to help promote a low-interest/slow-ticket selling fight,
which the Clay vs. Fleeman was.

Jorodz, are you in LOVE Muhammad Ali.......

 

Yes, but you can't seriously think that Ingo looked bad on purpose to help Clay promote that fight. "Sure, I'm challenging for the title, but what is that compared to giving this cocky kid that I've never heard of a hand in his career, on my expense". Not that likely, is it?

All accounts, except perhaps yours, point to Clay making Ingo look bad. Ergo, Clay made Ingo look bad. Case closed.

What, if anything, can be made out of it is another debate.

 

How does anybody know what Ingo or Clay were thinking.
You can only assume.

Does it ever log into anyones mind, that a no-nothing sparring session was taped and released to the local ABC-TV affiliate.
Who the hell tapes sparring sessions.............unless its to promote something.

You Guys:huh

 

If they reported it the same week then, yes, it's pretty solid.

But if it's just a load of guys saying, "yes, I was there when ..... " years later, then it simply isn't strong evidence. Look at all the writers who claimed over the years that Dempsey had fallen on their typewriter when he went out of the ring against Firpo. Dempsey must have bounced around the press row for ten minutes if the stories are to be believed.

Of course, the FILM of the Clay-Johansson session IS evidence.

 

Cool.

:good

That renders any reliance of "sparring stories" completely unnecessary.

 

they say jake lamotta never hit the deck but he did when danny nardico nailed him as jake was way past it. he did however get up and take an extended beating by holding onto the ropes till the end of the round.

 

That a title contender and former champ doesn't want to be made a fool out of a green kid is one of the safer assumptions one can make.

Yes, it was to promote something. Ingo.

Muhammad Ali: His life and times p. 37:

"Johansson was in Florida training for a rematch with Floyd Patterson. Harold Conrad, who co-ordinated promotion for that fight, recalls the Clay-Johansson sparring session:"

Harold Conrad: "The promoters decided to bring Ingemar to Miami to sell some tickets for the fight. Whitey Bimstein was the trainer. We got to Miami, but there weren't any sparring partners. So I asked Angelo: Do you have anyone who can work with this guy?""

 

I think challengers and champions HAVE deliberately looked unimpressive in pre-fight sparring to either help build interest or manipulate the odds. It has happened.
It has nothing to do with making the sparring partner look good.

I don't think that is the case with Ingo-Clay at all though. For a start, Ingo was a big underdog for that 3rd fight, and considered by most to be badly damaged goods. There's be little point in making him look worse. I might help the odds on him lengthen further but it would also potentially harm the box office interest. I don't know if it would be worth the trouble.
Secondly, Ingo simply wasn't much good, and was damaged goods. Clay was brilliantly fast and unorthodox.

 

I wonder if this was said.

"Ingo, you can let this kid get in the ring with you, and let him look good, to help us out, we need some good press'

Sunday, 2/5/61 Miami Herald,,,,,,,'Clay to box Ingo Monday'

As a note, the Cassius Clay vs Donnie Fleeman fight was the third fight on the bill,
it wasn't the main event or main undercard, on Tuesday, February 21, 1961.

The sparring session/film shoot was held at The Auditorium, Miami Beach, on Monday 2/6/61.
Otha Brown, a hot Miami Light Heavyweight also sparred 5-minutes with
Ingo. Pretty much an indentical sparring session, with Brown moving fast around the ring.

I wonder if Gil Rogin reported the same story.

 

There's footage I'm sure. Pretty sure I've seen it.

Ingo is quoted as saying he asked for a 'quick' sparring partner... not 'lightening'.