Did You Fear That Ali Would Have Been Assasinated During The 1960s?

Also Duce, pertaining to the last thing you said.


Isnt it possible to see past the narrow minded mentality of equating public admiration for selfishness?


If public admiration was what was stopping your from feeding hungry people, you would let it?

Now THATS selfish

 

Nobody gets anything for free, it is earned by hard work, like you said.

I will agree, he was not given enough credit for his perseverance.
And yes, the most imaginative boxer ever.
But, not the most humble person on this planet either.

 

I was just alluding to the fact that Native American reservation enjoy a measure of autonomy, not that Native Americans have had a jolly experience of co-existing with whites. They haven't.

 

Just who in America has had a jolly experience.

What do you think, everything was just handed to us.
It's not like it's one big party.

 

Dom de Luise?

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Dom in 'FATSO',,,,,,,very good movie....two thumbs up.

Lets see,,,
I'll have 'two' shrimp cocktails for starters.
Don't forget the bread.
A bowl of Lobster Bisque.
A family size order of Penne' w/Vodka sauce
More bread

For dessert a triple order of Tiramisu'

Oh, to drink,,,,,,,a Diet Pepsi

 

Or as the obese guy in the Monty Python sketch from The Meaning of Life: Points to the menu. "Put it all in a bucket, and don't be stingy on the custard."

 

'How can you have any pudding,,,,,,,if you don't eat your meat'

In 'Fatso', they buried his fat cousin Sal in a 'Grand Piano'........

 

No, I don't have a "holding hands, all together" view of the civil rights movement. I consider Malcolm X's later involvement, and the Black Panther Party and some other black nationalist revolutionary groups as part of the movement. Those guys were a far bigger threat and more radical than the NOI.
But the NOI proper were actually very ambigious towards the political climate of the 1960s.
I might be wrong. But they had a very separatist, very religious view of matters, believing separation was the way forward and wait for God to do the rest.

I don't think I have a "very narrow" view of the issue. A narrower definition than you have, but that's all.

maybe you're not reading my posts. I've never said that the Civil rights movement is only what MLK and the non-violent civil disobience types were doing.
I actually think radical revolutionary movements were a large part of it.
But that doesn't mean the NOI, a religious black separatist sect, were part of the movement because they preached betterment of the black race.
If you want to include them, that's fine.

OK, it's "resistance".
Some people think punk rock was rebellion, and tranvestitism is revolutionary. Maybe it is.

The NOI were for :
A form of racial segragation
&
entrepreneurial capitalism

They preached that the oppression of the black man was mental, and that freedom would be achieved through religious observance. They didn't encourage involvement in politics. They were very conservative in that regard.

For these reasons I think they were distinct from the spectrum of various views within what I see as a civil rights movement, whether radical or moderate.

But your view of the movement is broader.

I disagree.

Maybe you haven't been reading my posts.
Malcolm X and other political radicals and revolutionaries were part of the movement.

I've never said otherwise.

Obviously, I was kidding.
The American Nazi Party cannot be included, however broad the definition, surely.
But Elijah Muhammad seemed to think their views were good and proper for the a common cause that he believed in.
I doubt he invited many other white political figures to talk at an NOI meeting. In fact, I'm not sure he invited many political blacks either. I'll have to look that up though.
I do love the picture :

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He was threatening to knock out sportscasters ?

Calling a man 'sir', maybe men were just respectful of their fellow man in those days, and politeness was still in fashion. A lot of fighters used "sir" and "mister" a lot in those days, and sportcasters were perhaps more dignified and respectful too. I'm not sure it was a sign of racial subservience, as it happened between whites and whites too. Archie Moore called people 'sir', and Moore was no less of a proud black man than young Cassius Clay, whose brashness was an adolescent's act based on a wrestler he admired.

Well, that's fair enough.
I don't condemn Clay/Ali. I just don't think the controversy he provoked makes him a "Civil Right activist".

I doubt he was the first black man to avoid the draft and get away with it.

I know the Rosa Parks case started a long string of boycotts and demos that eventually forced the end of institutionalized segragation, but what exactly are you suggesting Ali's draft issue did for black Americans ?

 

On the contrary, the evolution of his views in the last year to eighteen months of his life is well documented territory.

Except I've explained it.

I agree with you on Malcolm X. Always have done.
But the Elijah-led NOI ended up branding Malcolm a traitor, and completely and aggressively attacked Malcolm's continuing involvement in wider political issues and his willingness to become part of the radical political movement. They basically said he was going to hell for his behaviour. Oh, and some of them ended up shooting him dead.

Well, C Gerald Fraser, a black journalist whose career largely revolved around reporting Civil Rights, protests, Black politics and social issues, wrote in his obituary of Elijah Muhammad the following ....

"Malcolm X was Elijah Muhammad's most prominent apostle. Malcolm X was the chief spokesman, the main recruiter; he brought the heavy-weight boxing champion Muhammad Ali into the movement. But by 1963 Malcolm X was disenchanted, while denying that he was a rival of Mr. Muhammad for top leadership. He believed Mr. Muhammad's religious interpretations that excluded Caucasian Moslems too narrow, and he was concerned by the Black Muslims' policy of non-engagement in civil rights and political affairs.


(Elijah Muhammad) prevented Black Muslims from participating in the country's political process, including any political activity on behalf of a separate state, because, he contended, what was to be achieved by the Nation of Islam was to be achieved divinely, though natural catastrophes and warring among whites on a national and international scale. "

 

Very interesting. Elijah Muhammad was one unsavory character. That's for sure.

 

Dunno i was'nt alive.

 

Malcolm X was tolerated by Elijah Muhammad for so long because he was a good speaker and brought in new recruits.

BUT they split. The schism occurred in the NOI, and Malcolm and his likely-minded followers left. This was happening just around the time Clay went public as being part of the NOI, and he was left firmly in the Elijah loyalist camp.
He made no statements favouring Malcolm's ideas over NOI orthodoxy.
And no one thought of Cassius Clay/Muhmmad Ali as being POLITICAL.
The "Black Muslims" were recognized as a religious sect with ideas that were unpopular with the mainstream, they weren't thought of as political reformers or revolutionary.

Despite your insistence that I have a stupidly narrow view of Civil Rights movement, you will actually find that "Civil" and "Rights" are words in the English language that have specific meanings.

Preaching that black people are mentally and spiritually dead and need to worship Allah, keep away from whites and wait for the white man to destroy himself is NOT struggling for one's civil rights.
I've explained this. And you stubbornly insist otherwise.

You quote Elijah Muhammad :

"THE ONCE slave Black Man in America -- enslaved by the white people, his white slave master and enemy, made the Black Man a subject and keeps him a subject by depriving the Black Man of the knowledge of self and the doing for self. These are the two most hated things which the white man hates to have come to the Black Man -- the freedom to DO something for Black self and the freedom to THINK for his Black self. He hates for the Black Man to be a visionary for his Black self. He hates for the Black Man to control ideas that will produce recognizable constructive plans and doing for Black self"


Pretty much sums up what I've been saying. Elijah Muhammad's concerns are mental and spiritual. He is advocating a RELIGIOUS struggle for "knowledge of self", not a political struggle for "Rights".
The difference is immense.