Johnson Willard: Dive or KO

Ask your son's MB,why don't the top nutrisionist's today,make great fighters ? Why can't todays big [or small] fighters go 15-25 or more rounds
today? Why can't todays top fighters fight almost weekly as a Greb, Jack Britton,Johnny Dundee,and others did in a 300 bout career ?
The reason is they trained more arduously, had great full-time trainers,who
taught them things that allowed them to fight hundreds of bouts,without
mouthpieces,until Ted Kid Lewis used them. These tough guys,fought to eat,as they had no home relief, food stamps,etc. In short ,MB tell them how fortunate we are to live today, than our old-time fighters. If that doesn't work
how about an old time spanking ? Cheers...

 

I saw Barbara Eden on PBS last night. Not sure 76 is old after watching that.

 

it's weird: nutrition and necessity has been used on both sides to say old time fighters were "malnourished" and weaker or to say old time fighters were tougher because they fought not for millions but pride and survival. i'll lean towards the latter. dempsey would make a great case study on this...the fighter he was before fame and then the fighter he was after

 

Again, I have to agree with those who say that Willard was turning the tide in the later rounds.

If Johnson realy intende3d to take a dive he would not have dominated Willard in the early rounds. The risk of winning accidentaly would have been too great.

 

I'm sticking by my guns on this one - Johnson tried everything he could but didn't have the snap in his shots enough to stop Willard and basically went down and got out of there when he realised things were only going to end painfully for him at some point between rounds 26 and 45 - have seen others fighters do it - first one that really comes to mind is Tyson against Danny Williams - Tyson made up his own my to go down - he wasn't going to hang around and take a pasting off someone who wasn't good enough to shine his shoes - same thing with Johnson - too much of an ego - he just didn't want it and knew at that stage he wasn't going to get it anyway - so he waited for a big looking shot to be lashed out at him and down he went - layed there for 10 seconds - then got up and went on his merry way while pretending to his handlers that he was still feeling the affects - I think Willard looked a little surprised by Johnson going down actually judging by the way he nearly tripped over him and had to right himself with the aid of the ropes - probably completely wrong but it's just the vibe I get from watching it - that's how I see it - so not a dive in the usual pre-arranged sense but just a decision to get out of there as soon as he could get Willard to lash out at him with a plausible enough looking shot.

 

This is why film is very important! I have seen several rounds, including the round before the KO. Willard badly hurt Johnson with a body shot in the 25th round. Johnson was hurt, doubled over and was ready to go. Johnson got of his stool slowly to start the 26th round. I have also seen the reverse angle Ko shot. It was a good one.

This entire fight is misunderstood. Johnson was the better from rounds 1-15, but it was not a one sided fight. In fact Willard was the better late.

 

As mentioned, if that fight was not on the level, Johnson took one painful dive.

A bit like those who suggest Foreman/Moorer was not on the level. Did you see Moorer's face at the end of that bout? He was a terrible at blading, if that was a dive!

 

:good:good JOhnson went for the KO in the previous round of the KO. He was throwing wicked shots with mean intentions - not the sort of a guy who looked he was gonna take a dive - and when his last thrust failed, the final collapse was inevitable. It came in the next round. Johnson was clearly faded at 37. Great fight though.

 

There was a high def transfer of the final rounds on youtube at one point. Willard was definitely landing and was pushing Johnson around at will. Furthermore, that last, long right from Willard would have dropped just about anyone. If Johnson threw this fight, then Rahman probably threw his second fight against Lewis.

 

A long-bout fight, in the heat of Havana, against a big strong-boy.

Not the smartest pre-fight negotiation.

Much like, Marvin Hagler negotiating versus Mike Trainer.

 

Sorry to change the flow here, but Johnson was knocked out early by firecat something early in his career, he was knocked out cold by one punch from Willard, he was decked by a middleweight Ketchel...so why don't the people who say Wladimir and Lewis have weak chins include Johnson as having a weak chin?? Never hear anyone ever say the great Jack Johnson had a glass jaw. Jusst wondering about that inconsistency

 

Welcome to the Classic Forum.

 

It really doesn't strike me as being quite as deadly as either Lewis' right hand against Rahman or Rahman's right hand against Lewis for that matter - yeah there was certainly power in the punch - he got full extension and full tilt on it and used his whole body and certainly threw it with a great deal of speed and Willard was 6'7" and 16 1/2 stones so yeah but it just strikes me as a suspiciously similar falling technique by Johnson to that which he exhibited in the bogus knockdown against Ketchel (almost a carbonm copy actually - for anybody who cares to check that one out and compare it) - if you watch it in slow mo he bends his left knee sliping his left foot in towards himself and tilts over in that direction - yeah it was a sudden big shot from Willard but it wasn't that powerful - it didn't land explosively - I don't think it made tremendous contact like for instance the right hand of Lewis against Rahman - you tend to really see it go right through a heavyweights body when a big guy is dropped and KO'd with a one massive shot but with that one Johnson kind of swayed sideways slightly from it (no real sudden snap ) then kind of almost went to clutch at Willard (to me for all the world as tho he was trying to break his fall a little on the way down) - and like I said earlier he stays ridiculously suspiciously still while down -FOR SOMEONE WHO IS CLEARLY FULLY CONCIOUS - fighters always stir even very slightly or make some bumbling attempt to clamber up or at least sit up or get to a knee or whatever but Johnson just lays there absolutely still covering his face (I think not from the sun but so people including the ref couldn't get a real good look at his face while he was down) - here's a little clip of the moment of the punch

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhumAxChVa4&feature=related[/ame]

 

I don't see why we should read anything at all into the fact that Johnson lies motionles after he goes down. He ran out of steam afer fighting for 26 rounds, the punch dropped him, then his body shut down.

If sombody crashes out of an endurance event like an ultra marathon, then one second they are running and then a few seconds later they are down and can't move their limbs. The body just goes into shutdown.

 

Lets not forget in the early rounds Johnson was trying to take Willard's head off. Willard took a beating the early going.