What's the highest you can honestly rate these heavyweights?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by willcross, Feb 17, 2011.


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  1. willcross

    willcross Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I came up with this idea for a thread, can't remember seeing it here, but you know what they say, There's nothing new under the sun.

    Everyone knows heavyweight top ten lists are subjective. So instead of trying to come up with a single list. What's the highest you could justify ranking the following fighters? I'll skip the obvious Joe Louis and Ali since they are usually 1 and 2 in whatever order you please.

    Sonny Liston

    Larry Holmes

    George Foreman

    Jack Dempsey

    Mike Tyson

    Wlad Klitchsko

    Vitali Klitchsko

    Lennox Lewis

    Joe Frazier

    Rocky Marciano

    Evander Holyfield

    Gene Tunney

    And any others you may think may be interesting. Will post my list in the next message.
     
    willcross, Feb 17, 2011
    willcross, Feb 17, 2011
    #1
  2. willcross

    willcross Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Sonny Liston- Liston is one of my favorite fighters but I can't rank him high. It's not that he's bad, there are just too many fighters with more to offer. He gets mostly remembered for 2 things. Beating Patterson, which was impressive, and stinking it up against Ali twice. Maybe his opportunities came too late in life for him. Highest would be maybe 8.

    Larry Holmes- Easy for me. I could make him number three. He is my number 3 in fact. I can't see him being greater than Ali or Louis in resume. He prolly beats Louis head to head but I don't rate that much in my lists. But with his long reign, great skills, and how well he fought even as he aged. I think he is a solid number 3.

    George Foreman-Foreman isn't the 3rd best heavyweight. There are a couple better choices. But I would have no problem having him the 4th. Great power, great wins over Frazier, Norton was good, as was Lyle. Incredible comeback 20 years later gives him the nod for 4th.

    Jack Dempsey-I really struggle to get Dempsey in a top ten list. Short title reign, and while great for his time, everything he does, I can think of someone who does it better. Top rank of 10.

    Mike Tyson-Tyson is outside of the top 5 for me for sure. Fairly short reign at the top, very short prime. Few truly great wins in my opinion. Although the Spinks win gets underrated. Tyson is in the second tier for sure. Best I could rank him is about 6th. In reality I have him at 9 or 10.

    Wlad Klitchsko It's hard to judge fighters still active. Personally I'd wait till a few years after his retirement to rank him. Interested to see what you guys think.

    Vitali Klitchsko-see above

    Lennox Lewis- Lennox was a great fighter. Very solid but not great resume, great power and skills. His two blemishes, while avenged and forgiveable. Keep him out of the upper echelon for me since they happened in his prime. He could be 4 or 5 tho.

    Joe Frazier-Call me crazy but I think Frazier gets overrated sometimes. He could have been incredible if Ali and Foreman chose other career paths. I agree with that. But the fact is they didn't. Ali showed he could be outboxed, Foreman showed he could be outslugged. I still think he's great but just alittle overated. Maybe it's personal bias but I top him out at 7

    Rocky Marciano-Marciano could also be argued for number three. Great chin, great power, great record. Maybe not a great prime opponent that stands out but overall a good body of work. Undefeated and very popular, which contributes to the idea of "greatness" in some ways.

    Evander Holyfield- Holyfield is the trickest to rate of this whole list in my opinion. I could see ranking him anywhere from 3 to 10. It just depends on who you like, what your criteria are, and what time periods you favor. He has a few losses, blew hot and cold in the 90s. But he has fought in 4 different decades, multiple champion, came up from cruiserweight to accomplish all this. and can never be counted out of a fight

    Gene Tunney- Tunney is just shy of top ten for me. Even being generous I can't see him in there. What about you?

    Well i'm sure you guys will rip this to shreds lol. But that's what great and kind of my point. Lists are incredibly subjective. Well let's here it!
     
    willcross, Feb 17, 2011
    willcross, Feb 17, 2011
    #2
  3. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    Willcross, well reasoned resposes. I honestly not disagree with any of your ratings, tho perhaps I rate Foreman a tad lower.
     
    Seamus, Feb 17, 2011
    Seamus, Feb 17, 2011
    #3
  4. Hookie

    Hookie Affeldt... Referee, Judge, and Timekeeper Full Member

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    Could, Could, Could... Maybe...

    Marciano #1 (based off of the 49-0 overall record, 7-0 (6) HW World Title Fight record, and 6-0 (5) mark vs. Hall of Famers)

    Holmes #2
    Foreman #2
    Holyfield #3
    Lewis #3
    Frazier #4
    Tyson #4
    W. Klitschko #5 (sometimes size matters)
    V. Klitschko #5
    Tunney #6 (size or lack of it sometimes matters)
    Dempsey #6
    Liston #6
     
    Hookie, Feb 17, 2011
    Hookie, Feb 17, 2011
    #4
  5. Hookie

    Hookie Affeldt... Referee, Judge, and Timekeeper Full Member

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    Charles top 10 at best...

    he beat a faded Louis, was better than Walcott despite going 2-2 vs. him (most felt he won 3 out of 4), gave a prime Marciano hell in his 98th and 99th pro fights

    from '46- to his first loss to Walcott in '51 he went 39-1 only losing to Elmer Ray via very close decision. He stopped Ray in a rematch. Along the way he went 9-0 in HW World Title Fights. He is the best LHW ever IMO.

    he also dominated tough LHW/HWs Moore and Maxim going 8-0 vs. them.
     
    Hookie, Feb 17, 2011
    Hookie, Feb 17, 2011
    #5
  6. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    So, you say "everything Dempsey does, I can think of someone that does it better".B.S.,with all due respect.Who for example can destroy a Jess Willard
    ,NEVER FLOORED before,quicker or better,than Dempsey.?Who would pulverize a bull like Firpo more impressively than Dempsey did in the second round ,
    with 2 vicious inclose blows,too fast for the camera to pick up ? Who ? Who
    scored TWENTY FIVE or more first round kos ?Who do you know was a rougher, tougher infighter at heavyweight.? What heavyweight in his PRIME
    was considered as fast in his movements as a Welterweight,than Dempsey ?
    You have a right in your opinions, and i have a right to challenge some of your assumptions..
    Your idol Ali,had many flaws in his arsenal. MANY things he did others did MUCH better, but we must take the overall package Ali,and other top heavyweights had in totality, to rate them. Not to single out a Dempsey that his contemporaries,who saw him at his prime and raved about.
    One last point- No fighter in history was better in every aspect of boxing skills
    than your criteria of Dempsey. Cheers...
     
    burt bienstock, Feb 18, 2011
    burt bienstock, Feb 18, 2011
    #6
  7. RockysSplitNose

    RockysSplitNose Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    :lol::lol::lol: Some one else who has Rocky Marciano at number 1 !!!!!??? :lol::lol:
    Quality!!!:good

    yeah before anyone comes along I gotta say Rocky Marciano greatest of all times for me - Rocky no.1

    The prime Dempsey of Willard massacre number 2 - nobody else gets ahead of him

    Liston is my number 6 of all time

    Larry Holmes is my number 7

    Foreman is 8

    Tyson is 9 - the Mitch Green version

    peak Holy is at 13

    Lennox is 14 (the 227lb peak Lennox from the Ruddock days that is:D)

    Tunney is 15 behind Lennox

    next comes Smokin Joe at 16

    I'll reserve judgement on the Kilts until they retire certainly Vit is behind Lennox (and probably a couple of others aswell) and Vlad I don't rate as highly as Vit so there you go :hi:
     
    RockysSplitNose, Feb 18, 2011
    RockysSplitNose, Feb 18, 2011
    #7
  8. D.T

    D.T Guest

    Sonny Liston = He should be in ANYONE'S Top 15. He just has so many unanswered questions and mysteries around him. That hurts his ranking IMO.

    Larry Holmes = Top 5 no doubt.

    George Foreman = Top 10 easily, but he gets VERY overrated. He has VERY few great wins. Frazier was still champ and still a great fighter... but not at his peak. Norton was..well... Norton. Qawi was good but past it and Moorer was a good win for Foreman.

    Jack Dempsey = Top 5 IMO.

    Mike Tyson = Top 8 IMO.

    Wlad Klitchsko = wait till career it over.

    Vitali Klitchsko = wait till career is over.

    Lennox Lewis = Top 12 (not Top 10 IMO). HUGELY, DISGUSTINGLY overrated by some people, which makes me turn against the fighter (because of the fans). Much like Pacquiao.

    Joe Frazier = Top 10

    Rocky Marciano = Top 10

    Evander Holyfield = Top 6

    Gene Tunney = Don't really know. He could very well be in the top 10 without problems.

    Ezzard Charles = Same as Tunney

    Floyd Patterson = Top 15

    Riddick Bowe = Top 20

    Jack Johnson = Top 5

    Harry Wills = Top 20
     
    D.T, Feb 18, 2011
    D.T, Feb 18, 2011
    #8
  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Sonny Liston #3

    Larry Holmes #3

    George Foreman #3

    Jack Dempsey, ich, maybe #5 if you were making a h2h list and were high on him I wouldn't argue

    Mike Tyson #5, ditto

    Wlad Klitchsko #15

    Vitali Klitchsko #16

    Lennox Lewis #3

    Joe Frazier #3

    Rocky Marciano #3

    Evander Holyfield #6

    Gene Tunney #11
     
    McGrain, Feb 18, 2011
    McGrain, Feb 18, 2011
    #9
  10. Pachilles

    Pachilles Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Sonny Liston - 10

    Larry Holmes - 3

    George Foreman - 6

    Jack Dempsey - 15

    Mike Tyson - 6

    Wlad Klitchsko - 12

    Vitali Klitchsko - 14

    Lennox Lewis - 3

    Joe Frazier - 7

    Rocky Marciano - 3

    Evander Holyfield - 8

    Gene Tunney - 15
     
    Pachilles, Feb 18, 2011
    Pachilles, Feb 18, 2011
    #10
  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Haha, Demspey at 15 that's brutal.
     
    McGrain, Feb 18, 2011
    McGrain, Feb 18, 2011
    #11
  12. Il Duce

    Il Duce Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Lennox Lewis may be the only one who could defeat everyone on that list.
     
    Il Duce, Feb 18, 2011
    Il Duce, Feb 18, 2011
    #12
  13. Pachilles

    Pachilles Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I have:

    Ali
    Louis

    Marciano
    Holmes
    Lewis

    Foreman
    Tyson

    Johnson
    Frazier
    Holyfield

    There is absolutely no way he is breaking into that top 10 of World Heavyweight Champions. Being only the White Heavyweight Champion himself.
     
    Pachilles, Feb 18, 2011
    Pachilles, Feb 18, 2011
    #13
  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I have him at 14 personally, but 15 is the highest you can see him ranked without getting that itch? To me, the gaps between these guys are slender.
     
    McGrain, Feb 18, 2011
    McGrain, Feb 18, 2011
    #14
  15. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Liston #14 beat an exposed champion and choked against the other one.

    holmes #5


    foreman #9 should not have lost to ali by KO.


    dempsey #4


    Tyson # 10 Kod by more champs than he beat

    Klit still active
    Klit still active

    lewis # 7 Kod in prime x2


    frazier #18 ruined his rating by not retireing after TFOTC

    marciano #3


    holyfeild #8


    Tunney #22 did not fight enough heavyweights. did not KO any HW champions.
     
    choklab, Feb 18, 2011
    choklab, Feb 18, 2011
    #15
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