Quick question about Ali-Frazier fights

I've seen and studied plenty of footage on Frazier. Frazier may have been ever so slightly physically quicker as far back as 68 but he didn't have the necessary experience. FOTC was Frazier's defining moment. I also think it's unfair seeing as quick Ali was. Frazier still had the speed of pressure to smother and have Ali on the ropes for the majority of the fight. It's a lot easier to look quicker using lateral movement against Ellis. I think Frazier looked better in FOTC than in the 69 Quarry fight.

 

Do you feel the same about Wlad and his fights? Do you think he should have lost to Sam Peter? How about Ruiz? I'm just wondering.

 

In the first fight, Frazier fought an awesome, determined fight, and Ali fought a foolish one. He was still rusty from his layoff, and rather than attempt a slower tactical fight like he needed, he went right to war with Frazier, who slowly beat him up and wore him down. The Ali that walked into the ring that night was incapable of beating the same Frazier, though, gameplan or no.

The second fight, Ali had knocked a TON of rust off, was in better shape, and in losing to Joe, had managed to take something out of him in the process. He came in and boxed his plan with discipline. Frazier, I think expected a bit of a replay of the first fight, and was frustrated by the spoiling tactics Ali used that stopped him from getting going. The ref sure didn't do him any favors. Ali fought a brilliant and won that one rather wide.

Third fight, both guys were past it, but Frazier was further, and while very determined and hungry. Ali worked more inside, busted Joe up, and overwhelmed him late.

 

So, being out a couple of months with an ankle injury had more effect on him than being out 3,5 years had on Ali?

He may have lost his lateral movement a bit when recovering from the injury. But in FOTC, 11 months after the injury, his lateral movement is superb as are his hooks. It's there in the footage. As is the decline Ali had gone through.

Hell, against Foster he looks as good as ever. He must recovered by then already. This is just your usual agenda.

 

Bok,

What agenda,,,,,,,Joe Frazier suffered a broken ankle.
Of course he was in excellent shape for the FOTC, just his side-to-side shifting and
pivoting was not what it once was, which made him vulnerable to the left jabs and straight right hands.
Before the injury, the taller sparring partners had a more difficult time catching Joe, or
timing him.
Jim Lee Elder, a sparring partner was landing left jabs all-day long on Joe, because
he couldn't shift, and was pretty much a straight ahead fighter only, in January and February sparring sessions.

I don't think it is fair to say, Muhammad Ali just sat around for 3 1/2 years and did
nothing, and he did look fantastic versus Jerry Quarry. And he was durable versus
Osacr Bonavena, who no one looks good against, including stopping him.

I just think a late-1969/early-1970 Smokin Joe avoids many more punches.

 

Found Smokin Joe's training schedule for the March 1971 Fight.

Sportswriter, Thomas Thompson

Run 6 miles in the morning.
3-minutes skipping rope.
3-minutes hitting the heavy-bag
3-Rounds of shadow boxing.
3-Rounds of sparring.
3-minutes of calisthenics.
3-minutes of work with an 18 lb. medicine ball.

Joe's pre-fight assessment. Clay will probably dance and come out fast for Rounds 1 and 2.
I know I cannot out-speed him, but I will close the gap by Round 3.
I will pressure him in Round 4, and attack him in the later part of the round.
In Round 5, you will see a change in the fight, as my pressure will weaken him, and
the right hands to the body will take away his movement.

 

Absolute bollox Il D. Nobody would have complained? It would have been like Cairo the other night if they had have stopped the fight at that juncture

 

JM,,,,,,,

Joe was clearly winning, and had the fight won, and Muhammad was hurt.
We have seen fights stopped on much less.

Who would have complained, surely no one would jump over Arthur Mercante
for a pre-mature stoppage.
But, Ali did show the heart of a chmapion, and hung in there.

 

I think it was very clear from the film that he wasn't in FOTC. His movement looks trully excellent there, as it does against Foster. What you claim that some sparring partners said, doesn't change what's there to see.

He did no sustained training or sparring. He looked very bad against Bonavena and said himself during the post-fight interview that he felt rusty. He started gassing as early as the 3 rd against Quarry (something both he and the ref testifies to), but the cut bailed him out.

Don Dunphy during FOTC: "Frazier's not the easy target he used to be, bobbing and weaving all the time"

I can just close this with saying that if I didn't know of your hatred for Ali, I'd think you knew nothing of boxing. An ankle injury hampered Frazier more than 3,5 year inacitivity hampered Ali, you say? That's very obviously silly to most and it's certainly not supported by what's on film.

That's about what I have to say on this often repeated subject.

 

Okay, okay Duce, we are all convinced. You no longer have to exert yourself any longer.

Now we all believe that a "below prime" Frazier beat the hell out of a "prime" Ali, oops ..... Clay in the FOTC. And if Clay wasn't in his prime on that night, then when was he in his prime? Pre exile? But why bother about this Clay who beat ol' Sonny Liston in a couple of 'fixes' and a bunch of 'has beens' and 'never weres'. Let us take a version of Clay who would have been (according to "Ali" nut-huggers) at an unimaginable level. Yes, a version who hadn't been sent into exile and had continued his championship reign. Say in 1969, right? Frazier stops (I think a clean knockout would be even a more lip smacking outcome ... think about it) Clay in the 11th round, right?

What a wonderful soothsayer you are Duce. Almost like a prophet. Forget about reasoning why Frazier couldn't stop a 1971 Clay but would have stopped an "absolute prime" Clay. A wise man doesn't reason with someone who could be a prophet. Moreover, I have noticed a new 'truth' that you have recently unearthed. That the referee could have stopped the FOTC in Frazier's favour and nobody would have complained. So, what is the next truth, Duce. That the referee should have stopped the fight?

Oh, I almost forgot. Frazier accomplished all this while being seriously visually impaired and also suffering from a host of other serious ailments. Also he left a lot in the ring in the FOTC - yes the same fight in which he gave Clay a helluva beating (now figure that one out ... dimwits. As I said, no wise man should reason with prophets).

We also believe all that you have had to say about Clay as a man and about his character. So, he stood for nothing. My, how the world has been deceived.

And of course Duce, we all believe you when you say that you do not have an agenda. You are doing all this so that everyone will be enlightened and realise the "truth" after having meandered in the dark alleys of "blind ignorance" for such a long time. Imagine, how much good this will do to the sport of boxing, its history, this forum and to the ignorant and simple minded unfortunate souls who people this forum.

There is so much more that can be said about what you have said, Duce. But it will take a lot of time and space. So, I will just repeat that we are all fully convinced about what you have to say about Cassius Clay.

Thank you for taking the time and effort to do all that you have done.

 

Abraq,,,,

Very good analysis.
I thought we are entitled to our own opinion,,

As for prime, of course Joe Frazier was at his best. And in 1969 and in 1970 too.

Lets not forget, Joe only fought 5 1/2 rounds in 1970, while Muhammad Ali fought
17 1/2, in the second half of the year.

By Ali's own admission, he was a bigger man who punched harder. So forget about the
speed stuff, he was fighting differently.

As for 'prime', just what is it,,,,,,,most fighters have a good 'top run' of 3 years.
I would clearly say, Joe's was 1969/1970/1971,,,,,1972 was party time.

Muhammad Ali, 1967/1968/1969.

I just can't figure out why the people who are Muhammad Ali fans, insist that the March 1971 Joe Frazier
was at his absolute 100% best in the ring that night, just on the basis that he beat Muhammad.

 

Sums my view up,perfectly. Ali was in great shape for the 1974 rematch,and fought the ideal fight. Even taking the excessive cliching into consideration,Ali was a worthy winner that night,just as Frazier was for the first fight. In Manilla.Muhammad underestimated Frazier again,and was pushed to the limit in consequence. One wonders how the fight would have panned out had Muhammad trained as hard for that one as he did for the second.

 

Lester Pelemon,,,,,Smokin Joe's camp manager at the Concord Hotel,

From January 21, 1971.

Sparring partners;
Don Warner
Ray Anderson
Ken Norton
Jim Lee Elder
Ed Casey
Rufus Brassell (who left camp, and went to Miami Beach to work with Muhammad Ali)

Joe was getting beat-up pretty good from the sparring partners, as he was having
difficulty in avoiding left jabs.
He started off at 226 lbs. But his movement was limited due to a previous ankle injury.
I wanted him to come in light at 202 lbs., so he wouldn't have to put added weight on
his ankle.
His side-to-side shifting was gone, as he was afraid to re-injure the ankle.

We tried this big kid from Philly for a couple of days, and he frightened me, as he
hit Joe with every punch he threw. Joe was there to be hit, and that's when I became
really worried.

 

T-N-T,,
I'm not up on all the Muhammad Ali info,,,,,

But I think the Miami Beach sparring partners for the FOTC bout.
Al 'Blue' Lewis
Johnny Hudgkins
Rufus Brassell (after he left the Joe Frazier camp)

 

1970 pre-quarry training sessions - listen to wise old Cus (starts 3 mins in)

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