Whether you love Pac or hate him - will ANYONE EVER do what he's done again (fw-lmw)?

Except for Glass jawed Hatton, Pacquiao's power is'nt concussive at Welter........

.......however, I'm not pointing the finger at Pacquiao because of his power.....

......the reason I believe he's a PED user besides his failed interview, is that he's been able to carry both his speed and stamina through each weight class.

Of the fighters I've seen in my over 30 years of watching the sport, I've never seen that........

As a fighter moves up in weight he loses both speed and stamina, along with it, a decrease in workrate.
......this has not happened with Pacquiao.

The benefits of PED's include increased speed, quickness, stamina.
If you're training to gain Power, PED's can help do that also.

Pacquiao I believe uses PED's to mantain his speed, quickness, and stamina.....point blank, because that has not decreased one iota!:deal

 

His fight night weights are relevant to this discussion as it gives validity to what his fans have been saying all along that he has outgrown the lower weight classes hence he needed to move up. It also shows that Pac's weight isn't fluctuating as some of his haters suggest. According to http://bleacherreport.com/articles/335056-manny-pacquiao-an-overrated-cherry-picker-think-again , Pac's fighting weights are as follows:

11/18/2006
Pacquiao-Morales 3: Official weigh-in: 129- Fight night: 144

10/06/2007
Pacquiao-Barrera 2: Official weigh-in: 130- Fight night: 144

06/15/2008
Pacquiao-Marquez 2: Official weigh-in: 130- Fight night: 145
06/28/2008
Pacquiao-Diaz: Official weigh-in: 135- Fight night: 147

12/06/2008:
Pacquiao- De La Hoya: Official weigh-in: 142- Fight night: 148

05/02/2009:
Pacquiao-Hatton: Official weigh-in: 138- Fight night: 148

11/14/2009:
Pacquiao-Cotto: Official weigh-in: 144- Fight night: unknown

Pacquiao have outweighed both Morales and JMM on fight nights (see below). Also, just because the two Mexicans can't dominate at 147 does not mean that it can't be done. If we follow your line of thinking, then we can conclude that no Mexican will ever win world titles in four different divisions just because JCC and the other Mexican legends before and after him were not able to do it.

I found a couple of fight night weights from Pac-JMM and PAC-Morales and in both cases, Pac had outweighed them:

From http://www.theboxingtruth.com/forums/index.php?/topic/57-physical-evolution-of-manny-pacquiao/

Pacquiao-129 Morales-129 (weigh in weight) Pacquiao-144 Morales-139 (fight night)...11-2006
Pacquiao-129 Marquez-130 (weigh in) Pacquiao-145 Marquez-141 (fight night) 03-2 0 0 8

 

so, JMM not being effective at welterweight means all fighters the same size as him should also be not effective and strong, wtf? is that what you're trying to say? Pacquiao has the speed and power all time long since at lower weights, and he's draining himself to fight at that weight just like other fighters including your boy JMM. Pac just stopped draining and fight at his normal weight and been successful. Not all fighters are the same,, not at all. if they are, then we won't have multi division champions up until now.

 

For your points to have any validity, we would have to assume that Pacquiao is the only fighter at these low weight classes who was gaining weight from weighin to fight night.
That just is'nt the case, most fighters climb into the ring quite a few pounds heavier from the official weighin.



Let me put it this way, Miguel Cotto for example when he was at 140 lbs, climbed the ring at well over 150 lbs the night of the fight........

I'd bet now that he's fighting at 154 lbs, I doubt he's climbing the ring at past 160 lbs.......

Physically Cotto would be at a huge disadvantage if he fought a big strong 154 lbs fighter who climbs the ring at close to 170 lbs........

I doubt Cotto will be able to dominate a good skilled juniormiddleweight himself weighing under 160 lbs fight night, unless he puts himself on a PED regimen to increase speed and stamina, thus being able to increase his workrate to work on these much bigger juniormiddleweights.

......by your theory however, Cotto should look spectacular now that he does'nt have to cut weight to make 147 lbs!:nut

.......see, it does'nt work that way.

 

Pacquiao is better than Cotto in almost every way...I'll give Cotto the big edge in the jab and bodyshots.

That's not a good example.

 

The history of the sport and fighters who move up in weight and as a result are not longer cutting weight, shoots down your theory.

A fighter and especially of the offensive style of Pacquiao, has less sucess as he moves up the scales.
My previous posts in this thread explain it.

......this is'nt about Marquez not being as effective at 147 lbs, its well beyond that......

 

Give me an example then of a fighter below Welter, who moves up 3 or more divsions and doe'snt noticeably lose something in his physical attributes, I'm talking quickness, speed, power, stamina???

 

Pacquiao has lost speed (ever so slightly), and he has lost stamina (slightly)...he fights more in bursts if you watch.

The difference between Cotto and Pacquiao is...Pacquiao already had great advantages over his opponents at the lower weights (speed, power, etc), which in turn became even more exaggerated as he moved up in weight. Whereas Cotto, has never had those physical advantages over his opponents...and even if he moved up to Middleweight, there are guys at Middleweight who are still faster of hand and foot.

 

youre not a hater you say but shits on his wins after marquez?

hatton, cotto, hell even margo and clottey would be too much for anyone in their divisions.

****ing hate is too much in esb.

 

divac has nothing left but to blurt out conspiracies without an iota of proof.

a fighter as popular as pacquiao would have been exposed long ago if he was in any performance enhancing bullsquirt.

 

As I pointed out in my post earlier, not all boxers are the same and if I may add now, not all of them think alike. Pac is definitely not the only one who has outgrown his weight class and when that happens, a boxer has two choices: stay in their present weight class and kill themselves trying to make weight or move up in weight. Pac just chose the later. Again, just because something hasn't happened before does not mean it won't ever happen. Records are broken because somebody talented and hard working enough dared to break them.

We wouldn't know that until he actually dares to fight a good, skilled junior middleweight, would we?

No, not really. Just because somebody can do it does not mean that anybody can too. Following your line of thinking, JCC Jr. should win 6 world titles in 3 different divisions because his father did and -as what Pac's haters would say- "JCC Jr. is also on whatever Pac is on".

 

I like that you're actually debating the points I'm making.......
.....but Keep it real, Pacquaio has not lost speed or stamina, he may even have more stamina now.

That Cotto fight was really telling for me......in heavy exchanges against who I feel was a very good strong Welter in Miguel Cotto......right where you thought the exchange was ending, you would think the smaller fighter wants to dart out to get a breather, but instead, Pacquiao hits another gear and brings out the thunder......just shoots out the heavy and speedy combinations at an unbelievable rate......
.....and this right after an even and heavy exchange has occured.
Pacquiao summons up the energy and to put it in racing terms, leaves Cotto stuck as if he was in mud.

Whats telling is that not only are Pacquiao's fist fly's fast and furious......each of those shots have significant umph behind them.

Pacquiao is'nt the typical fighter with fast hands (a shoe shiner).....his fast fist carry leverage and power behind them, which leaves one scratching one's head on how Pacquiao can continue with the pace he's on and even increase it at his leisure.


Now I would say to Pacquiao, "brother, its hard to believe you can throw such fast and heavy shots at the pace you throw them, and do it against much bigger men than yourself without being under the influence of PED's."......"Your performance in the ring as a welterweight, havin just been a featherweight not long ago, leaves one to wonder."

"Look at this video Manny."........

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZr6MZDBPZI&feature=player_embedded[/ame]

......"now Manny, performing at 147 lbs the way you're doing and then to have you do this, man thats just embarrasing."

 

Divac, this is just like asking to give another example of a sprinter apart from Usain Bolt who can run 100m faster than 9.59 seconds. No one apart from Bolt has run faster than 9.58 but that does not mean that it can't be done. That record may be broken tomorrow or 100 years from now but it certainly does not mean that it can't ever be broken.

 

Man, don't compare the speed of a welterweight to speed of a middleweight! there's a big difference. Pacquiao speed decreased slightly, you can notice that. Pacquiao fighting guys who weighs 160+ gave him the speed advantage, if they had the same speed then the outcome is a lot different. Cotto has the speed of a typical middleweight, his size compromised his quickness. The bigger the size, the slower you become, that's why Pacquiao and Roach always maintain their natural size so as not to compromise their speed. Why don't people see that? Pacquiao ain't big, he's just faster than his opponent because they are bigger.

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=on4_WNDuA70[/ame]


In dont doubt for one second that Mark McGuire and then Barry Bonds after him worked hard to break those Homerun records!

The one thing that stands out as Pacquiao having in common with Bonds and McGuire is that all three were better in what was supposed to be the down end of their careers.:deal