Did Jim Jeffries Benefit From Being Born At The Right Time?

guilalah · Mar 4, 2011

Boucher
He (Sharkey) had been thrown out for lack of effort, along with his opponent the drink sodden Maher.

Click to expand...

In Sharkey and Maher's defense, what I've read in Pollack's 'In the Ring ... Jeffries' inclines me to believe they had been told by the police that they would be arrested if it looked like there was any possibility of a KO.

janitor · Mar 4, 2011

guilalah said: ↑

In Sharkey and Maher's defense, what I've read in Pollack's 'In the Ring ... Jeffries' inclines me to believe they had been told by the police that they would be arrested if it looked like there was any possibility of a KO.
Click to expand...

That would explain a lot, because Sharkey had a rubber match with Jeffries riding on the outcome.

Boucher · Mar 4, 2011

janitor said: ↑

Boucher said: ↑

janitor said: ↑

Again, why do you keep coming back to his record rather than the primary sources?

If I found six newspaper articles that said that Joe Grim deserved the next available title shot, then I would be verry surprized, but I would acept the evidence of my own eyes.

As we can see from the careers or Corbett, Fitzsimmons and Jeffries himself, a period of a few years with no high profile fights, did not eliminate a fighter from contention back then.

There had been considerable interest in a Jeffries Sharkey rubber match ever since their exiting bout on Coney Island. Every time that it seemed to be on the point of being made, Sharkey dropped the ball. For example Jeffries had actualy signed articles before the Maher fight to meet Sharkey if he defeated Maher. Had he done so he would probably have got a title shot instead of Corbett the second time.

The Munroe fight was basicaly Sharkey's last throw of the dice to put himself back in contention for a title shot. Had he won, he would almost certainly have got it.
Click to expand...

It isnt just that Sharkey had been inactive, it is that he had seriously gone back as a fighter,look at his results.
If a fighter was losing more than he was winning and ,being stopped in those losses ,then retired for 2 years ,and the papers told you he was a live contender for the title, what would your reaction be?
Or do you believe everything that you read ?
Jeffries was never in a hurry to rematch those men who gave him a hard time,.look at his record. It took him three years to rematch both Fitz, and Corbett. He last fought Sharkey in 1899 are you telling me that defenses against the likes of Finnegan, Griffin,and Kennedy were more valid than rematching the man who gave him his hardest fight?
He didn't do it because," Sharkey dropped the ball" ?
Yet he was willing to meet a terminally eroded Sharkey, 3 years after their very close contest? atsch
Of course he was, another easy night.
Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

janitor · Mar 4, 2011

Boucher said: ↑

If a fighter was losing more than he was winning and ,being stopped in those losses ,then retired for 2 years ,and the papers told you he was a live contender for the title, what would your reaction be?
Or do you believe everything that you read ?

Click to expand...

I might disagree with the newspaper, but it would be media opinion simply by virtue of the fact that the newspaper wrote it. If multiple newspapers wrote it then it would be a major trend in media opinion.

There is realy nothing to argue here.

Jeffries was never in a hurry to rematch those men who gave him a hard time,.look at his record. It took him three years to rematch both Fitz, and Corbett. He last fought Sharkey in 1899 are you telling me that defenses against the likes of Finnegan, Griffin,and Kennedy were more valid than rematching the man who gave him his hardest fight?

Click to expand...

Here again you illustrate the folly of trying to judge these issues based on a fighters surviving record and completely ignoring primary sources.

Boxrec does not tell you that that Jeffries suffered an injury in or after the second Corbett fight that almost forced his retirment. The Griffin and Kennedy fights were warm up fights to get him back into condition for fighting at world level.

Boxrec also dosn't tell you that Bob Fitzsimmons anounced his retirment after he beat Ruhlin and Sharkey, perhpas to force up the price of a rematch with Jeffries.

There are dozens of critical details like these that you cannot tell by looking at a fighters record.

He didn't do it because," Sharkey dropped the ball" ?

Click to expand...

Sharkey was lined up for a rubber match more than once, but lost a major fight when it was about to come off.

If you actualy know what was going on at the time, then Jeffries choices of title opponents are all prety logical.

Yet he was willing to meet a terminally eroded Sharkey, 3 years after their very close contest? atsch
Of course he was, another easy night.

Click to expand...

If Sharkey had beaten Munroe then it would probably have been the only marketable fight left unless he was prepared to break the colour line.
Click to expand...

Boucher · Mar 4, 2011

janitor said: ↑

I might disagree with the newspaper, but it would be media opinion simply by virtue of the fact that the newspaper wrote it. If multiple newspapers wrote it then it would be a major trend in media opinion.

There is realy nothing to argue here.

Here again you illustrate the folly of trying to judge these issues based on a fighters surviving record and completely ignoring primary sources.

Boxrec does not tell you that that Jeffries suffered an injury in or after the second Corbett fight that almost forced his retirment. The Griffin and Kennedy fights were warm up fights to get him back into condition for fighting at world level.

Boxrec also dosn't tell you that Bob Fitzsimmons anounced his retirment after he beat Ruhlin and Sharkey, perhpas to force up the price of a rematch with Jeffries.

There are dozens of critical details like these that you cannot tell by looking at a fighters record.

Sharkey was lined up for a rubber match more than once, but lost a major fight when it was about to come off.

If you actualy know what was going on at the time, then Jeffries choices of title opponents are all prety logical.

If Sharkey had beaten Munroe then it would probably have been the only marketable fight left unless he was prepared to break the colour line.
Click to expand...

The Griffin Finnegan and
Kennedy fights were Title defenses,any time a heavyweight champion fights it is a title defence.And these were shameful ones.
After Fitzsimmons kod Sharkey in 2 rds in 1899 , who was a more logical contender for Jeffries title?
Are you seriously suggesting that Fitz would have turned down a fight with Jeffries at that time?
Sharkey,you say forfeits his chance because of losing at critical times, yet he gets stopped inside the distance twice, and is retired for 2 years ,and lo and behold ,he is a contender again?:huh
Jeffries could have fought Hart,Ferguson, or Mike Shreck, without breaking the colour bar.
Click to expand...

The Old School · Mar 4, 2011

[yt]MtOjXb3EsW4&NR=1&feature=fvwp[/yt]

[yt]eI8mVLPbvLw&feature=fvwrel[/yt]

[yt]xT_q44fdcUA&feature=fvsr[/yt]

[yt]wmo2CNOxQ9c&NR=1&feature=fvwp[/yt]

In 1904, when Jeffries was in his prime, Jack Johnson met with him trying to pressure Big Jeff into a title shot. Jeff, knowing the politics of the time, drew the color line. But he told Johnson in dead seriousness, "There's a cellar in the place. 'Tell you what I'll do. I won't meet you in the ring because you got no name and we wouldn't draw flies. But I'll go downstairs with you and lock the door on the inside. The one who comes out with the key will be the champ." Johnson refused and walked out. That's the kind of rugged man Jeffries was though, a real fighter. A boxer, a wrestler, a street-fighter. He could do it all.

Click to expand...

janitor · Mar 4, 2011

Boucher said: ↑

janitor said: ↑

The Griffin Finnegan and
Kennedy fights were Title defenses,any time a heavyweight champion fights it is a title defence.And these were shameful ones.

Click to expand...

I have to disagree.

I do not have a problem with an active champion who is fighting the best contenders taking a warm up fight, especialy coming off a long layoff caused by a near career ending injury.

After Fitzsimmons kod Sharkey in 2 rds in 1899 , who was a more logical contender for Jeffries title?
Are you seriously suggesting that Fitz would have turned down a fight with Jeffries at that time?

Click to expand...

I am not suggesting that he would have turned down a fight with Jeffries, I am insisting that he did turn it down.

Sharkey,you say forfeits his chance because of losing at critical times, yet he gets stopped inside the distance twice, and is retired for 2 years ,and lo and behold ,he is a contender again?:huh

Click to expand...

With every other name fighter of the period eliminated twice over and dominated (Fitz, Corbett, Ruhlin), Sharkey was basicaly the only unfinished business left.

The only fighter who had given Jeffries a close fight where the score had not been settled.

Jeffries could have fought Hart,Ferguson, or Mike Shreck, without breaking the colour bar.
Click to expand...

None of them realy established strong claims until after the Munroe fight.
Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Boucher · Mar 4, 2011

The Old School said: ↑

[yt]MtOjXb3EsW4&NR=1&feature=fvwp[/yt]

[yt]eI8mVLPbvLw&feature=fvwrel[/yt]

[yt]xT_q44fdcUA&feature=fvsr[/yt]

[yt]wmo2CNOxQ9c&NR=1&feature=fvwp[/yt]
Click to expand...

You forgot the bull moose he carried on his shoulders for 25 miles.

JEFFRIES FLAT OUT DUCKED HIS MOST DANGEROUS CHALLENGER .

JACK JOHNSON

eslubin · Mar 4, 2011

The right time to be born is whenever someone is born. What you do in your era--is all you can account. Jeff can't be asked to fight Ali or Tyson. But he can be held to account for Johnson who he did fight. And took a righteous whippin in the process lol

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROUiZnnFfAw[/ame]

youtube.com/eslubin

Pachilles · Mar 4, 2011

eslubin said: ↑

The right time to be born is whenever someone is born. What you do in your era--is all you can account. Jeff can't be asked to fight Ali or Tyson. But he can be held to account for Johnson who he did fight. And took a righteous whippin in the process lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROUiZnnFfAw

youtube.com/eslubin
Click to expand...

eslubin laying down the law, bitches

janitor · Mar 4, 2011

Boucher said: ↑

You forgot the bull moose he carried on his shoulders for 25 miles.

Click to expand...

If we are going with facts suported by primary sources, then Jeffries did lift a 500lb deer ont the weighing scales.

JEFFRIES FLAT OUT DUCKED HIS MOST DANGEROUS CHALLENGER .

JACK JOHNSON

Click to expand...

I find myself on both ends of this argument depending on wether I am talking to you or Mendoza.

One thing I do know is that Johnson came on the scene verry late in Jeffries career. For most of his title reign, the top black challengers were less dangerous than the white challengers that he was fighting.

This makes me think that Jeffries did have a misguided principle about not defending the title against a black challenger.

Also, I don't think that it bacame obvious that Johnson was the biggest challenge of his career until it was too late!
Click to expand...

Boucher · Mar 4, 2011

janitor said: ↑

Boucher said: ↑

I have to disagree.

I do not have a problem with an active champion who is fighting the best contenders taking a warm up fight, especialy coming off a long layoff caused by a near career ending injury.

I am not suggesting that he would have turned down a fight with Jeffries, I am insisting that he did turn it down.

With every other name fighter of the period eliminated twice over and dominated (Fitz, Corbett, Ruhlin), Sharkey was basicaly the only unfinished business left.

The only fighter who had given Jeffries a close fight where the score had not been settled.

None of them realy established strong claims until after the Munroe fight.
Click to expand...

Five months after beating Sharkey, Jeffries took on John Finnegan, who had been kod by Ruhlin in his last fight , just over two months previously, please explain what strong claims he had established to warrant a title fight?
Please show sources for your , confidently , adamant statement ,that Fitz turned down a title shot with Jeffries .
Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Mendoza · Mar 4, 2011

Boucher said: ↑

You forgot the bull moose he carried on his shoulders for 25 miles.

JEFFRIES FLAT OUT DUCKED HIS MOST DANGEROUS CHALLENGER .

JACK JOHNSON
Click to expand...

Ducked? Johnson was maybe Jeffries top challenger for a very brief window from say mid 1903 to Johnson's loss to Hart in 1905. 1.5 year's is hardly a huge duck wen you use history as a benchmark. Besides, when the money was up ( And there was never a big money offer for Jeffries vs Johnson pre 1905 ), Jeffries returned years removed from his best to take the fight. In fact I don't think there was ever a big money offer with a promoter for Jeffries vs. Johnson pre 1905.

It seems like you ignore the contemporaries and papers of the time, Bocuher. You do realize that Jack Johnson himself considered Jeffries the greatest of all time.

Boucher · Mar 4, 2011

janitor said: ↑

If we are going with facts suported by primary sources, then Jeffries did lift a 500lb deer ont the weighing scales.

I find myself on both ends of this argument depending on wether I am talking to you or Mendoza.

One thing I do know is that Johnson came on the scene verry late in Jeffries career. For most of his title reign, the top black challengers were less dangerous than the white challengers that he was fighting.

This makes me think that Jeffries did have a misguided principle about not defending the title against a black challenger.

Also, I don't think that it bacame obvious that Johnson was the biggest challenge of his career until it was too late!
Click to expand...

Chronologically speaking, in 1904 ,when Jeffries had his last fight as Champion, Johnson was far and away ,the standout threat to his title.
This fact is uncontrovertible,incontestable, incredibly irredeemable, irradiantly,irredescently,incandescently, unarguably.FINAL

Johnson was calling Jeffries out for years ,look it up ,he took ringside seats at his fights for that express purpose.
I know you are as big an admirer of Jeffries as Mendoza ,but,I thought you were a little more objective on the subject.

Jeffries saw Johnson as Banquo,the spectre at the feast.

" Experience is a good school ,but the fees are high"
Click to expand...

1899sharkey · Mar 5, 2011

Not at all. These clowns today are lucky they weeren't fighting in his era.

Log in or Sign up

Did Jim Jeffries Benefit From Being Born At The Right Time?

guilalah Well-Known Member Full Member

janitor VIP Member Full Member

Boucher Well-Known Member Full Member

janitor VIP Member Full Member

Boucher Well-Known Member Full Member

The Old School New Member Full Member

janitor VIP Member Full Member

Boucher Well-Known Member Full Member

eslubin Active Member Full Member

Pachilles Boxing Addict Full Member

janitor VIP Member Full Member

Boucher Well-Known Member Full Member

Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

Boucher Well-Known Member Full Member

1899sharkey Boxings golden age Full Member

Log in or Sign up

Forums

Did Jim Jeffries Benefit From Being Born At The Right Time?

guilalah Well-Known Member Full Member

janitor VIP Member Full Member

Boucher Well-Known Member Full Member

janitor VIP Member Full Member

Boucher Well-Known Member Full Member

The Old School New Member Full Member

janitor VIP Member Full Member

Boucher Well-Known Member Full Member

eslubin Active Member Full Member

Pachilles Boxing Addict Full Member

janitor VIP Member Full Member

Boucher Well-Known Member Full Member

Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

Boucher Well-Known Member Full Member

1899sharkey Boxings golden age Full Member