Cooper vs Ali I and II Cards?

I'm definitely not generalizing,jowcol.I gave another specific example of an event when Ali was badly knocked down,got up and recovered well as in the FOTC.That's a pretty specific occurance.Yes,Ali..was..clocked..big time by Frazier as well as Cooper,which would indicate to me that he would have survived the round against Cooper had it not happened at the bell,because it happened when he fought Frazier.I'm basing my opinion on actual events,not generalities.

 

Thats true, I understand your point. cooper has indeed made a career, in retiremant, out of a part myth. I just think he earned that myth. good luck to him and the rest of them that had "their moment", they still made history. ali himself never resented cooper earning off "his moment" because he earned it.

Cooper still hurt a fresher ali than frazier did in an albeit non title fight. It is recorded, it still hapened and ali was fortunate it was the end of the round in the same way coopers cut wasnt opened up that bad before the knockdown.

 

I know. The point I was making is that Ali is just as guilty as Cooper in embellishing the story

 

What really interest me about this incident is the smelling salts. Were the illegal in the UK at this time? Dundee certainly doesn't try to hide using them, and the commentator doesn't mention it even though it's in plain sight. And the ref didn't say anything either.

 

I know what your saying mate and you do have a point bout guys lucking out but the fact is the bell DID sound and Ali DID come out and hit Cooper everywhere except the soles of his feet. Anything else is speculation:good

 

I got it,but Ali's embellishment doesn't favor Ali.As for Cooper's embellishment.........

 

I think Cooper in both fights showed he had a good style and the right equipment to give Ali a competitive fight but for one thing ...... he was a terrible bleeder.

And you just can't be a terrible bleeder and hope to go the distance with a prime Ali, who was a good cutting puncher anyway.

 

Probably because many a trainer will try to bend the rules, the commentator is caught up in the euphoria of the knockdown and the ref is busy looking at a split glove.


I don't know 100% (and I know you're desperate to believe they weren't banned :yep) but I think they were. They certainly were a couple of years later because I've read an article by Reg Gutteridge in BI saying "smelling salts have been banned in Britain for a good while now". So they could, of course, have been banned in, say, July 1963 :hey, but for me the answer is very likely yes.

 

It is a bit strange, though, that no one picked up on what would be a very clear infraction. Not during the fight and not afterwards. All the talk has been about the gloves when it's clear as day from the footage that Dundee gives him smellling salts. Only here on this forum have I seen the smelling salts being mentioned as cheating.

 

Always happy to oblige...

From The Telegraph:

'Henry's Hammer' sparking scenes of bedlam in the Clay corner when the bell rang. American trainer Angelo Dundee revived his boxer with an illegal sniff of smelling salts, then further stalled for time by sticking his finger in a small hole near the thumb of Clay's glove to widen the rip."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...per-happy-to-swap-punches-for-punchlines.html


Although in the article, Cooper this time says the delay was two and a half minutes. Good old 'En-er-y.

 

That's it then. Damn you.

EDIT: Oh, it was a relatively current article, not a contemprorary one. Not quite the same weight then.

 

I don't think you were either (bad choice of words )
I think Ali was the greatest heavyweight of all time and we never had the opportunity to see him at his best - summer 67 to summer 70.
But I still stand by my statement that 'he dodged a major bullet at Wembley in '63. You've heard the old fighter's axiom that "there comes a time in a fight when his punches no longer hurt me like they did earlier" In the FOTC both fighters were exausted at the end. Cooper nailed him EARLY in the fight when both men were still sharp and fresh. IMO it is a reasonable POSSIBILITY that, had Cooper nailed him 30 seconds into the 4th, a young Clay may not have lasted.


As the resident Patterson nut-hugger on board here, I often point out that virtually all of Patterson's KD's occurred in the first few rounds. Who ever put him down once the fight got to the mid/deep stage?

My (for what its worth) $0.02

 

cooper was lucky his cut didnt open up bad before the knockdown and ali was lucky the bell rang after the knockdown and lucky he got some smelling salts to revive him...

 

Yes, of course. Not quite the same I couldn't agree more. The 'smelling salts' is no real difference to the 'black bottle' of the Pryor-Arguello fight or the 'cement mix' of the Conteh-Saad Muhammad fight (a case of a trainer bending the rules, which is basically the 'norm' really). The fact that it was deemed necessary is infinitely more interesting to me.

 

Why?Can you guarantee Ali wouldn't have survived the round had the knockdown occured earlier despite the evidence to the contrary in the FOTC?