By 2025 what will an ATG heavyweight list look like??

ATG in 2025:
1. Vladimir Chakorvski (retires undefeated in 2021)
2. Omar Hussein (only losses were to Charkorvski)
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Joe Louis
5. Sarufe Oruba (also greatest African fighter of all time, retired in 2019 after successive losses to Hussein and Charkovski)
6. George Foreman
7. Larry Homes
8. Lennox Lewis
9. Rocky Marciano
10. Mike Tyson

 

corbett? yes


patterson, walcott, charles no. younger fans love these fighters, especially walcott. They see how well walcott did vs louis and marciano.......and those two will always be immortal legends, so walcott is going to be up their. More and more people are finding out how great of a resume walcott had, his reputation is growing!

 

I myself (and I'm still well on the southern side of 50) don't think so much of Lewis as most relatively young fans do, and I don't expect that appraisal to change, but I concede that I will probably remain in the minority. That said, I don't think the relatively inferior assessment of Lewis is all that heavily centered amongst older fans as compared with younger ones- Lewis is a guy whose career has some heavily-contrasting and polarizing characteristics which I think will make it difficult for serious fans of most any age to hold an overly strong, centralized consensus on his standing. I expect the spread to stay about the same for the forseeable future.

Hmmm.... Well, these are guys who many people remember mainly as accessories to greater champions' careers, and so their continued recognition largely hinges on how those greater champions' standings shift. If Marciano, Liston and Jeffries' positions drop, then Walcott, Charles, Patterson and Corbett should drop more or less proportionately. A similar thing can be observed, for example, between given fans' rankings right now. A higher appraisal of one fighter generally leads to a higher appraisal of that fighter's best opponents and, indeed, his entire era.
For example, you hold more or less everyone from the last 10 years in higher regard than I do (Lewis in the top five for you, Lewis a little outside the top 10 for me, Vitali Klitsckho in the top 15 for you, Vitali lower top 30ish for me [depending on future results of either him or his opponents], etc.), while I hold more or less everyone from the mid-'30s through mid-'50s in higher regard than you do (Louis at #2 for me, Louis at #6 for you, Marciano at #4 for me, Marciano at #10 for you, Walcott and Charles lower top-15ish for me, Walcott and Charles lower top 30ish for you, etc.). I think that, more often than not, this happens from the top down, though bottom up is also possible.

I think his legacy is going a little under the radar at this stage. Two-time legitimate world champion, 76-5 with 68 KO's, stopped only once in his career, that coming against the popular #1, and utterly annihilated two consensus top 25 all-time heavyweights, one of them a consensus top 15 all-time heavyweight, who were in or at least fairly close to their primes- this alone should make Foreman a solid top 10 in my book. Now, when you add in that the second championship was accomplished when he was 45 years old (oldest man ever to win the title) and over 20 years after the first one, I think that makes him a remarkable champion. I don't think I should be in the minority in having Foreman in the top five, and I think people will start thinking more my way on this one, especially once ESPN/ESPN Classic (hopefully) finally gets tired of broadcasting Ali-Foreman time and time again.

One other thing- looking down my top 10 as it stands, I find it pretty evenly spread out. That is, there has never been a stretch of 15 years since the inception of the gloved era without at least one of my top 10 having his peak within it-
1885-1900: Jeffries
1900-1915: Johnson
1915-1930: Dempsey
1930-1945: Louis
1945-1960: Marciano
1960-1975: Ali, Frazier, Foreman
1975-1990: Holmes
1990-2005: Holyfield
There's the one bubble of three top-10 guys in '60-75, but otherwise it's quite constant. As such, I think it's most likely that one more top 10 all-time heavyweight will emerge before 2025.

 

Out of curiosity, what old fighters have you yourself researched, using primary sources? Maybe you found some previously undiscovered bouts of well-known fighters or something? A few examples, to prove yourself a rightful claimaint of this title (boxing historian).

 

haha most of my post was sarcasm, I dont consider myself a boxing historian, not just yet anyway. I havnt uncovered ****, hadvnt discovered ****, Im not the next messiah, My style is not impetuous, My defense is not impregnable, and I'm not ferocious. I love boxing.


All I have to my resume is I have quite a collection of rare film and a member of prestigous IBRO

 

i think wlad and tyson will be much more highly thought of, long to go into now, but we'll just have to see... i think people will have calmed down about lewis.

hopefully once holyfield has been retired for a few years (god help him if he's not by 2025), people will remember how great he was.

the rest will have similar rankings, with maybe the ali louis debate becoming even closer. i also think the revisionist reaction to holmes' long-time low placing will have settled back down, and he'll have more of a mid-top-ten ranking rather than the whole 'he's a lock for number three'.

 

I am not a huge Frazier fan but anyone who does not think he was a great fighter, that night in MSG ,is an imbecile.

 

I think the brothers klitchko will both make the top 10.

 

Ali
Louis
Johnson
Holmes
Holyfield
Foreman
Dempsey
Tyson
Marciano
Frazier

 

some of the movers i see:

Fitzsimmons Up. As more is found out about his opponents and the word spreads, He will rise in the rankings. If we get a small world champion or two, he will rocket up the rankings.

Ali - down. I can remember the days when it seemed i was a loan voice arguing that Ali would beat Tyson. That mostly changed after the US olympics. I think he will drop a little.

Lennox - down. I think that the next dominant small fighter will harm lennox' ranking.

Klitchskos- very hard to tell, but i think they will be the biggest movers. Whether that is up or down, i am not sure. I would guess Wlad to go down with his next KO loss and probably Vitali with his next loss also, but not by as much.

 

funny I was thinking the same thing.

the list won't change much unless some of the euro's have some barn burning affairs with each other, since american heavyweights are all cast off's from other sports and lazy to boot.

 

I have a feeling Charles' ranking will go up.

 

ATG 2030

1. Vladimir
2. Vitali
3. Muhammad Ali
4. (some east euro dude)
5. (some east euro dude)
6. Larry Holmes
7. Lennox Lewis
8. (some east euro dude)
9. Mike Tyson
10. (some east euro dude)

I'm talking 19 years down the road from now. Vladimir and Vitali will be the top two ATG's, hands down. Between now and then, about four more great east Euro dudes will appear, and they will clean house.

 

Charles is a cruiser, bro. He should be ranked relative to ATG's who didn't weigh more than 200 lbs. Klitschko Bros. would have made mincemeat out of him.

 

The casual audience will always skew towards more recent fighters...only real historical perspective establishes the true giants of the division, and that's something that doesn't genuinely solidify normally for quite a long time indeed after the careers are finished. Usually, when not only their careers are done but those of the guys they fought.

Holmes gets his dues these days but it took almost two decades after his peak for that honest recognition to happen. I think real distance is needed, even guys like Holyfield, Tyson and Lewis are still being 'chewed over' at the moment.

While he was still fighting, people used to debate if Ali was top ten. Later, they debated where to rank him in the top ten. These days, most people have him #1 and the rest usually #2 (always a few other dissenters too )

Also bear in mind the older generation of fighters often complain about and run down the younger generation too. And the younger in turn snipe back. Isn't that just life?