Right now, what is your 1-4 ranking of the top 4 supermiddleweights?

Maybe I rate bute more than you, I dunno, but I think he is levels above his current level of opposition.

When the top 3 are all fighting each other, whilst bute is fighting people outside the top ten, it is hard to put forth any argument for him to be top of the pile.

He could have took on the likes of stieglitz, pavlik etc. and I think he could have beaten these guys and kept his name in the mix. But he hasn't. Hell even stieglitz and sartison are unifying.

As I said, bute's level of opposition is south of what it should be.

Call me a bute fanboy if you want, I just think he's better than the likes of brinkley and magee.

 

Froch, is #1 right now, w/out a doubt.

In saying that Bute and Ward i think would beat him.

 

Froch
Ward
Kessler
Bute

Froch has the most impressive resume, has fought outta home and has a close defeat to Kessler.

Ward just beaten Kessler thats all.

What happens when Bute whoops Kessler? Will everyone then say Bute ranks ahead of Froch

 

this is easy my top 4

ward
bute
froch
kessler

 

Froch is literally 1-2 in his last 3 fights. Oh god I feel for the BRits when he gets punked like Hatton.

 

Check this **** out - Popkins are you copying my fantastic threads now??? :dead

This one I did on the 3rd of the month
http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=294435

This one I did in December
http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=275829


Seems like you are trying to emulate me Popkins

In answer to the question my answer is in the threads I did. Anyway im sure you have read my theads and know my answer.

Ratings of a fighter should be based on results not hype.

Now Ward beat Kessler so should be above him, Kessler beat Froch and should be above him. Bute doesnt have a resume as good as Kessler or Froch but does have an overall better resume than Ward and has beaten common opponents far more convincingly, so Bute should be above Ward.
1. Bute
2. Ward
3. Kessler
4. Froch

Now I like Froch as a fighter but it would be wrong to rate him above the others

 

I think 1-3 are inter changeable

Kessler who i am a fan of is at 4

Bute is first for me

Ward Second though not far behind and i think its interchangeable

Froch third great resume yes he did lose to Kessler byt has won since Kessler has not

Detractors

Ward should be one he is the S6 favorite beat Kessler probably wins tourney great skills and h2h is very favorable

Bute does not have a great resume

Froch seems weak h2h

Kessler longest time in ranks was in lime light when he fought Zaghe

Other arguements

Ward has only 1 good win

Bute may have a weak resume but continues to beat mandatories and decent opposition in his defense he has nobody availible ability and h2h wise he is one of the best

Froch lost to Kessler who Ward beat convicingly

 

Froch might have had a win after Kessler but in his fight before he lost to Kessler. What ratings would put him above the fighter you lost to in your last fight, especially when you consider that Froch was fighting Abraham coming off a LOSS, not a win even. Bute has to be above Ward just by having an overall better resume

 

I think based on how close the Froch Kessler fight was you can put him above Kessler plus you said Abe was coming off a loss, so was Froch

and Abes was controversial to a degree because he was coming back and looked like he could KO Dirrel

 

But note Froch who was coming off a loss was to Kessler, so how could you have Froch above him after just one win against a fighter off a loss?
Would you have put S Peter above W Klitschko when Wlad first beat Peter because it was a close fight where Wlad got put down 3 times and Peter had a win sooner than Wlad? Of course not, you wouldnt.
Ratings are not meant to be bias but on results

 

check out fragile popkins p4p ratings from august below. when you've finished laughing at chad dawson being number 3 and paul williams at number 8 :rofl, check out that he ranks andre ward as number 6 p4p purely for a win over kessler - a fighter he has never rated or ever included in his p4p top 20 :deal




http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=244189

1.

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Why?
He is the man in possession, the king on the throne. As the second-placed fighter is in the same division as the kingpin, the only way he can take this crown is in the ring, and to do that Floyd will have to actually man up, so Pac is safe at number 1 for the foreseeable future. Manny has barely lost a round over the last two years, and is now dominating and decimating men far naturally larger than himself - the definition of a pound-for-pound legend.


2.

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Why?
The only choice for number 2, Floyd joins Pacquiao in a league of two far above the best of the rest. Mayweather beat the far smaller Marquez with ease in a routine (and some would argue pointless and unfair) tune-up, but in his next fight he produced the goods big-time vs Mosley. Shook to his boots twice early on, Floyd showed his pound-for-pound star quality by winning every round thereafter. The pressure is now on for him to step up and try to reclaim his former position as number 1. The world continues to wait.

3.

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Why?
I realize this may be an unexpected and unpopular choice, but I think Dawson's accomplishments are underrated on the whole. To have beaten Tomasz Adamek as well as Glen Johnson twice, whilst establishing himself as the clear number 1 in the light-heavyweight division, is no mean feat for a young fighter - and anyone doubting the value of the Johnson wins need only see how Johnson turned away top 10 ranked Yusaf Mack in his most recent fight. Dawson has been at the top of his division for a few years now, has beaten the best of the generation before him, and is now taking on the toughest opponent available in Jean Pascal.

4.

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Why?
As many on ESB know, I am no fan of Wladimir, not by a long shot. However, even though I find him the most boring boxer of all-time, this does not blind me to his merits. I find it very strange that The Ring continues to ignore someone as dominant as he is. Wladimir is on a long unbeaten streak of dominant victories, and although the standard of opposition has not been great, it is not possible to fight consistently strong comp in a division as weak as heavyweight (especially when a good fighter like Povetkin inexplicably and in my opinion unforgivably shirks out of mandatory challenger status). I do not like Wlad as a boxer, and I do not like the heavyweight division, but a champion this dominant cannot be overlooked when it comes to pound-for-pound standings.

5.

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Why?
Martinez is a strange one in terms of pound-for-pound recognition. It wasn't long ago that he was fighting dire competition in small hall fights, and was a million miles away from mixing in this sort of company, but (depending on your personal perspective on the outcomes of some of his recent fights) his last three performances were pretty special. For me he clearly deserved a win vs Cintron, and I scored the Martinez-Williams fight to Maravila. A win over Williams is significant, as the Punisher is himself a legitimate pound-for-pound contender. The major scalp on his record is Kelly Pavlik though, what a win. Martinez, a natural lightmiddle weighing 167lbs on the night, vs Pavlik, middleweight KO specialist who was 178 in the ring, and Martinez turned in a supreme display to thoroughly deserve the verdict - and in my opinion to thoroughly deserve the #5 spot.

6.

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Why?
This is another choice which I'm sure many people will disagree with, but pound-for-pound talents are extremely rare in this era, there really aren't many strong candidates, and I think the Super Six leader and favourite deserves some recognition at this point. Although I personally prefer Andre Dirrell as a fighter, Ward is the one who is looking more complete and confident at this stage. To win every minute of every round in a high stakes fight vs Green was superb, and Ward almost shut out Edison Miranda as well. Of course, his greatest win was Kessler, making a mockery of his own inexperience to completely dominate a proven world-class supermiddleweight who went on to take Froch's zero in his next fight. Right now, Ward is looking every bit the next Bernard Hopkins, a long-standing star in the making and a fighter of extreme quality.

7.

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Why?
The Mayweather fight did not affect JMM's pound-for-pound standing one iota in my eyes. Marquez was only up at that weight for the payday, and the size differences rendered it a mismatch. However, I think both Diaz fights have shown that Marquez is patently not the fighter he once was. In 2008, JMM showed in the Pacquiao rematch that he was one of the top two active fighters in the world, but since moving above 130lbs I don't think he looks the same. Marquez's frame and body type clearly don't allow him to carry additional weight well - as proven by his bloated, overweight appearance in the Mayweather clash. In the first Diaz fight, Marquez really struggled with the Baby Bull's pace, aggression and strength early on before his own power, skill and accuracy won out. In the rematch, Marquez was again the better man, but it wasn't a dominant or spectacular or even particularly impressive performance - and a pound-for-pound top 3 or 4 guy would annihilate a Juan Diaz-calibre fighter IMO.

8.

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Why?
Many people will feel Williams should be above Ward, as Williams has been around longer and has a higher number of good wins on his ledger, but for me Williams has slid a little in the pound-for-pound stakes because of the nature of his recent fights. The Cintron fight had no resolution so no credit can be given to either man for the outcome, and I felt Martinez beat Williams. Winky Wright is well past his best and was coming off a very long lay-off, and Verno Phillips is even older than Winky! I do rate the win over Phillips, but if you are looking for the last time Williams was a convincing winner over a prime top 10 ranked opponent you'd have to go back to the Quintana rematch in '08. I think Williams has the potential to climb back up the rankings, but in all fairness he is in dire need of a big win, and soon.

9.

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Why?
I think Donaire is a great fighter, but I do think The Ring have given him an unjustifiably high placing in their top 10. Yes, he pulled off a sensational knockout of Vic Darchinyan... but that was three years ago now. Since then he has beaten a sequence of good, solid comp, but there's no real solid gold wins there. Donaire will occupy a higher placing in these rankings - but he should do so after he has unified titles or beaten another top name, not in anticipation of this.

10.

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Why?
I'm not a great believer in Calderon, but the dearth of valid contenders for the pound-for-pound top 10 sees him make the cut on the basis of his unbeaten record and longevity. I haven't been all that impressed with his last few performances on the whole, I think he is on the decline, and I don't think his resume is great, irrespective of the quality of the divisions he has fought in. However, in this era you can't knock a guy who has remained unbeaten as long as he has, he has shown himself to be a skilled boxer over the years.

 

Ward's resume' does not stand up to scrutiny. Yes -- he dominated Kessler, but he also thew nine head butts, some of which were clearly intentional.

With the singular exception of Andrade, Bute has been living off Pavlik's left overs, and fighters who were not as good as Pavlik's Left overs. Now he has moved on to Froch's left overs.

Froch holds wins over Pascal, Taylor, Dirrell, and Abraham. Carl fought a post-pavlik version of Taylor, and any honest fan has to admit that JT has not been the same fighter since the first Pavlik fight. The Dirrell fight was very close, and many people believe Froch got the benefit of a home town decision. Froch's win over AA was about as one sided as a 12 round fight can get, but at the start of the S-6 Abraham was the most over rated fighter on the planet. At the end of the day, Pascal is Froch's only credible, non-controversial win.

Kessler has looked like he lost half a step for quite awhile, and he already had eye problems when he beat Froch. I believe Mikkel's best days have come and gone. If and when he returns we may see a very good fighter, but I do not believe we will ever see the Kessler of old again.

Kelly Pavlik is on the come back trail, and by all reports he is doing quite well. Marcus Johnson has an important fight coming up in April. Edwin Rodriguez is slowly but surely building a respectable resume'. James DeGale looks like a very hot prospect. Isaac Chilemba just pulled off a stunning upset by clearly beating Maxim Vlasov.

I do not believe the Super Six will establish a true #1 at 168. I believe that this time next year the division will look very different from the way it looks now.

 

I agree with most of this.

Froch's resume is the best amongst the group with consistent, tough challenges, having only lost once in a tough, grueling fight that could have gone either way. But AA not withstanding, most do not come away impressed by his abilities.

Kessler's resume is ok, but his aside from Froch his wins aren't overly impressive. He lost 2 of his biggest challenges, one against the top guy at the time in the division, and the other against an up and comer. But he did beat Froch.

Ward and Bute both fall under the category of being rated so highly by many because, having watched them, people have come away impressed by what they saw. It's not necessarily based on accomplishment, but perception. Perception and observation do come into rankings. Ward does have the impact win that Bute doesn't, but Bute generally disposes with opponents more convincingly. I believe within a year or so, we will have definitive answers to the questions.

 

hold your breath ...Bute is figthing Kessler this summer.

 

Those are the rumours and indeed I would favour bute to emerge victorious. But until the big fights occur bute will not be in the top 3.