Was Fireman Flynn a good title choice for Johnson in 1912?

Do we really need another thread from you Mendoza, doing your best to discredit Jack Johnson?

anyone who has been on this forum a week is familiar with your views.

 

didnt Fireman Flynn KTFO out of Jack Dempsey, literally in 10 seconds flat??

 

Flynn had a good 1911 and 1912 campaign, going a career best 10(9)-0-0 since Langford III, and had more experience than McCarty at that stage. Luck had dropped a pair of NWS bouts, and had actually begun his career around the same time veteran Flynn undertook his winning streak. McCarty was essentially still a rookie of 15 bouts when Flynn got his shot. Gunboat lost five times during the Fireman's unbeaten streak. As hot as Dillon was, he was smaller than Ketchel, and would have been a hard sell after everybody had seen what Jack did to Stan in the nickelodeons.

The Fireman was knocked out in his first two bouts when overmatched by the more experienced LaFontise. After that, he was knocked out by Root, Burns (in Jim's first title shot), Kaufman, Johnson himself, and starched by Langford. So four of his five meaningful knockout defeats were to future HOFers. He'd redeemed himself somewhat for the first round knockout to Langford in his second bout with Sam, and knocked out Kaufman in a rematch. I don't have an issue with Flynn getting a shot at Burns or Johnson when he did after factoring in the color line. He had won over the 20 round distance, battered the hell out of big Carl Morris over ten, beaten Papke over ten, and taken out Gardner in 18. He'd also rebounded from the first loss to Johnson by knocking out Squires. A safe defense to be sure, but not a woefully unqualified one.

 

I fear this is not the response my Old Pal Mendoza is looking for.

 

You have to look at the events preceeding the fight to understand it.

Flynn had upset two highly touted contenders in close sucession, going into the fight. Al Kaufman was regarded as the outstanding white challenger before he fought Jack Johnson. Sure Johnson had beaten him, but he hadn't lost since fighting Johnson when he met Flynn. After that there was a large amount of hype surrounding Frank Moran, who was being touted as the most exciting of the new generation of white hopes. Again Flynn scored the upset.

Flynn getting a title shot was a logical extension of the events that had unfolded.

 

My Old Pal, let us examine your proposed alternative challengers to replace Flynn on 4th July 1912.
Smith.
In 1912 ,up until the date Johnson defended against Flynn,Smith had lost to
Jim Stewart 17-4-1 10rds dec
Porky Flynn dec 10rds
Drawn with Charley Miller 12-6-2
Lost to Jack Geyer 17-5-1 , and in Aug 1911 been kod by Geyer in 9rds.
When Geyer beat Smith by dec, he had drawn his last fight and lost the previous 3 .
Up until July 1912, Smith's best win was over Mexican Pete Everett ,but Everett was 36 years old,and had only won 5 of his last 15 fights and,had been kod by Ruhlin in 2 rds in his previous fight.
Which by the way was 8 years previously

Everett retired after the Smith fight came back 3 years later to be demolished by Harry Wills and retired again

Dillon.

Dillon had a busy 1912 but he fought no heavyweights ,indeed he fought no lightheavyweights, he lost to Klaus twice ,once for the middleweight title in which they both weighed 158lbs.

Dillon drew with middle George Chip but, as I say fought no heavies or light heavies.
Dillon beat Levinsky in 1911, Levinsky was a 6 fight novice
He did NOT fight Levinsky again until April 1913, Levinsky scaled 166lbs and it was a draw.

It's perhaps worth mentioning that Dillon took on Flynn ,[ the man you think he should have replaced in 1912. ]

Dillon fought Flynn on 3rd March ,1914,[ 2 years after Johnson thrashed Flynn ,]and could only draw with him.

McCarty.

Going into 1912, McCarty had engaged in 9 fights, he had lost 2 fights in Dec 1911 to

Jeff Clark,no disgrace, bad matchmaking imo.

Harry Wuest 5-1-0 harder to excuse I think.

Earlier in the year, he could only manage a draw with the lamentable Joe Grim who spotted him 42 lbs.

McCarty's best win of the first half of 1912 was against Morris a ko in 6rds, but Morris had allready had his bubble burst by Flynn receiving a real shellacking , the year previously ,even so Morris was the best name on McCarty's record at the time Flynn fought Johnson .

In fact, he was the only name on it.

Please show which wins, any of three you named, had up till 4th July 1912 ,that qualified them for a shot at the heavyweight ttile?
To summarise, Old Pal I think I have proved that none of the three men you proffered as alternatives to Flynn, on 4th of July 1912 , had credentials that were superior ,or even comparable to Flynn's.
Don't try and thank me for the information, Old Pal it was a pleasure.:good

 

Old Pal.
You had seven replies to your thread NONE agreed with you.

Dont let this get you down, I admire your perseverance, but perhaps its time to try new tactics?

As W C Fields once said,
"if at first you don't succeed ,quit,no sense being a damn fool about it".
I await your next missive .Your Pal Boucher :hi:

 

Maybe Sharkey and Burns should have been two of the contenders?

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...24114&dq=world+heavyweight+championship&hl=en

 

This article has Mcarthy, Flynn and Palzer as the three best contenders.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...79934&dq=world+heavyweight+championship&hl=en

 

http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=EP19120608.2.124

It does seem pretty clear that by 1912, McVey, Jeanette and Langford had pretty much emerged from the pack and had become the three best fighters in the world. Interestingly, it seemed as if Joe Jeanette was the higher ranked of the three by most people.

 

I think Palzer might have had a tenuous claim as a contender, he had some fair wins but had lost to a young Moran and Tom Kennedy in Kennedy's 3rd fight.
[Palzer's subsequent form after July 1912 was dire unfortunately .Six fights wth only 1 win and 3 of his losses were by ko]

Palzer came off the canvas to stop Billy Wells in June 1912 ,but was beaten by Tony Ross in November of that year.Ross had lost every round to Johnson when Ross was prime.

Palzer was a more realistic challenger than either Smith , Dillon, or McCarty at that stage imo.

It's interesting that the papers confirmed Flynn as one of the top 3 leading contenders.

Neither Burns,nor Sharkey could be called credible challengers for Johnson's title in 1912.
Burns had 1 fight that year a win over a nobody 0-2-0.

Burns had been so comprehensively thrashed by Johnson 4 years previously no one would have thought it viable to rematch them.

In 1912 Sharkey had been retired for 8 years his last fights [1904] had seen him winning just one of his previous 6 ,and he had been kod 3 times.

Sharkey in his prime could not do anything with a young sparring partner Jack Johnson,so he sacked him.
To expect Sharkey to come out of an 8 year retirement, and perform competitively ,is asking for a miracle,especially given his form when he hung them up.

Thanks for the info :good

 

I guess if you have enough good posters in a thread you can turn it from dog**** to a goldmine.:good