20-Bout Run (Ali vs Holmes Comparison)

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Il Duce, Mar 19, 2011.


  1. Il Duce

    Il Duce Boxing Addict Full Member

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    This is a 20-bout comparison, starting with their 5-bouts before winning the title, and the next 15 bouts.

    Clearly in a Billy Daniels versus Roy Williams, The 'Tiger' is by far a more
    dangerous heavyweight opponent.
     
  2. Il Duce

    Il Duce Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Alejandro Lavorante
    25 year-old, 6 ' 3" 208 lb. Argentinian Heavyweight
    A tall hard-punching bomber.
    17-3 0 (15 KO's)

    Had numerous impressive victories entering the fight with Cassius Clay,
    vs. Von Clay
    vs. Alonzo Johnson
    vs. Willi Besmanoff
    vs. Zora Folley
    vs. Jose Giorgetti
    vs. Rey Lopez

    Got rated as high as #3, following his victory over Willi Besmanoff.

    Had suffered a brutal knock-out loss to 'The Mongoose' prior to the Cassius Clay bout.
    Though a good fighter and solid puncher, questions about his condition after the
    knock-out loss surfaced.

    Was battered throughout by the young Cassius Clay, who finally stopped the game fighter in the 5th round.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Tom Prater
    27 year-old, 6' 1" 208 lbs. Indiana Heavyweight
    A tough durable fighter, who could be rated #25.
    17-3-1 (8 KO's)

    On a roll, and undefeated in his last 10-bouts. Was busy, with 6 fights in 1976, prior
    to fighting Laryy Holmes, in the ill-fated USBA Boxing Championships on ABC-TV.
    Had upset 6 straight fighters in a row.
    Was looking to make Larry Holmes, Number 7.
    vs. Mongo Ortiz
    vs. Al Jones
    vs. Randy Stephens
    vs. Lou Esa
    vs. Jody Ballard
    vs. Charlie Johnson

    Was a confident fighter in late-1976, as was considered the 'Underdog to Watch' in
    the USBA Tournament.

    Gave Larry Holmes all he wanted, and more. Was the more aggressive fighter, and
    shook Holmes a few times.
    Larry won a close unanimous decision, in a hard fought 8 Round battle.

    Alejandro Lavorante vs Tom Prater
    At the time both of these fighters fought Cassius Clay and Larry Holmes, I think
    Tom Prater may have been the better all-around fighter. Physically stronger, and
    an ability to take a better punch, as well as a better defensive fighter.
    Lavorante, clearly a better puncher, but his defensive liability would have been a
    problem.
     
  3. Il Duce

    Il Duce Boxing Addict Full Member

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    1962
    Archie Moore on Alejandro Lavorante

    After watching Lavorante knock-out Von Clay.
    'Give me this kid for 1-year. After 12-months of conditioning and leg excercises,
    this kid will be the next Heavyweight Champion of the World.'

    'Next year, he will give Patterson and Liston fits. I boxed 'two' rounds with this kid,
    and believe me, he can hit. He just needs conditioning, and leg strength.'
     
  4. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    At a quick glance I see at least 8 (possibly 10) top contenders/champions among Ali's opponents, but only 3-4 (Norton, Shavers, Cooney and possibly Berbick) among Holmes'. Considering how their careers progressed after this, it really highlights the gulf in quality of their respective records.
     
  5. altho williams was 1 myth rather then 1 serious contender ,
    Holmes did and still ,
    does have the edge as 1 ATG/LEGEND ,
    and in the careers compared .
     
  6. Jorodz

    Jorodz watching Gatti Ward 1... Full Member

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    holmes does certainly have a better career than williams

    he's nowhere near ali though
     
  7. Il Duce

    Il Duce Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Lets see,,,,,,,,,,
    Archie Moore and Horace Robinson are fairly close in overall achievements.

    When facing Cassius Clay

    The Mongoose was 45+ years of age.
    5' 11" and 191 lbs.
    184-23-10 (130 KO's)
    #7 Ranked Heavyweight
    Archie was old and tired...

    Horace 'Big City' Robinson
    25 year of age.
    6' 2" and 217 lbs.
    5-2-0 (2 KO's)
    Horace was big and spry!!!

    Robinson was Atlanta's #3 Rated Heavyweight.
    And he was coming off 'two' impressive upset wins.
    W Dec 10,,,Jerry Thompkins (7-2-0)
    W KO 1,,,,Ricky Wynn (15-1-0)

    The win over Ricky Wynn was a major upset, as Wynn was considered a can't miss prospect.
     
  8. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Okay, for fun, i will see how Bob Fitzsimmons does:

    1. George Foreman 40-0-0 Jim Corbett
    2. Joe Frazier 30-1-0 & 32-2-0 James Jeffries
    3. Sonny Liston 35-1-0 & 35-2-0 Jack Johnson
    4. Ken Norton 30-1-0 & 37-3-0 Tom Sharkey
    5. Floyd Patterson 43-4-0 & 55-7-1 Joe Godfrey
    6. Jerry Quarry 37-4-4 & 43-5-4 Gus Ruhlin
    7. Oscar Bonavena 46-6-1 Peter Maher
    8. Jimmy Ellis 30-6-0 Jack O Brien
    9. Zora Folley 74-7-4 Paddy Slavin
    10. Ernie Terrell 38-4-0 Joe Choynski
    11. George Chuvalo 34-11-2 & 66-17-2 George Gardner
    12. Ron Lyle 30-2-1 Bill Lang
    13. Earnie Shavers 54-5-1 Joe Grim
    14. Joe Bugner 43-4-1 & 51-6-1 Mick Dooley
    15. Bob Foster 49-5-0 Steve O Donnell
    16. Mac Foster 28-1-0 Bill Slavin
    17. Karl Mildenberger 49-2-3 Jack Bonner

    18. Archie Moore 184-22-11 Jack Dempsey
    19. Jimmy Young 17-4-2 Jim Hall
    20. Cleveland Williams 65-5-1 Tom Lees
    21. Doug Jones 21-3-1 Dan Creedon
    22. Henry Cooper 27-8-1 & 33-11-1 Ed Dunkhorst
    23. Leon Spinks 7-0-1 Herbert Slade


    Nowhere near as bad as one would expect. In fact it isnt really quality of opponents that sets Ali apart from Fitz. Size, possibly but not quality. Performance, i would have to think about. Fitz ledger is boosted by a couple old man losses and the one posted for Ali is missing Berbick and Holmes who were still technically opposition.


    If you except that the level of competition is similar (you need to get over the size factor), It is actually a very interesting comparison. Fitz, incidentally has a lot more names than Ali, that could be added, although we do no little about these guys, due to communication methods, more than anything else. Fitz also has the quicker and more spectacular KOs than Ali has over many fighters. Definitely, the resumes are nowhere near as far apart as you would think, especially if you consider quality of opponent in their own time, as opposed to imaginery head to head ability which is impossible to tell due to lack of film.
     
  9. the cobra

    the cobra Awesomeizationism! Full Member

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    Liston & Patterson alone put Ali's run on a different level.
     
  10. Il Duce

    Il Duce Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Definitely agree,,,,,,,,but I also think Larry Holmes would have the tools
    to battle both Sonny Liston (1964 and 1965) and Floyd Patterson
    (1965 and 1972) pretty good too.

    Both ATG's had remarkable runs.

    As a note, the 1964 Sonny Liston was age 36, and the 1978 Ken Norton
    was younger than Sonny, and in better physical condition.
     
  11. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I don't think Larry's run was that remarkable. He had a very impressive consistency, but it's not like he cleaned house or anything. Cooney was probably the best fighter he beat (considering his shape when they fought) and that doesn't really wow me. Second up would probably be an ageing and disillusioned Norton.
     
  12. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Liston's age is very much up for debate. Don't try and pass this off as fact. It's your speculation, you troll.
     
  13. Il Duce

    Il Duce Boxing Addict Full Member

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    1) Sonny Liston was born in 1928 (FACT).

    2) Just who else could Larry Holmes fought in that run.

    3) You're the TROLL, I started this post.

    4) Are you done doing Ali's laundry yet, because after you're done,
    you can start folding the sheets,,,,,Mr. Houseboy.

    BOKAJ = ALI's HOUSEBOY
     
  14. Jorodz

    Jorodz watching Gatti Ward 1... Full Member

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    you're the liston guy here so who am i to argue. but i thought he himself wasn't sure of his own birthdate and that 1928 was the best guess that he had
     
  15. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    :lol: What is wrong with you? Seriously? If it was Tyson you had this hang-up on I would have guessed he'd robbed and then ass-raped you in a New York alley sometime in the early 80's, but that isn't really Ali's MO, so I'm a bit lost here...

    Btw: You are a troll.