This is a 20-bout comparison, starting with their 5-bouts before winning the title, and the next 15 bouts. Clearly in a Billy Daniels versus Roy Williams, The 'Tiger' is by far a more dangerous heavyweight opponent.
Alejandro Lavorante 25 year-old, 6 ' 3" 208 lb. Argentinian Heavyweight A tall hard-punching bomber. 17-3 0 (15 KO's) Had numerous impressive victories entering the fight with Cassius Clay, vs. Von Clay vs. Alonzo Johnson vs. Willi Besmanoff vs. Zora Folley vs. Jose Giorgetti vs. Rey Lopez Got rated as high as #3, following his victory over Willi Besmanoff. Had suffered a brutal knock-out loss to 'The Mongoose' prior to the Cassius Clay bout. Though a good fighter and solid puncher, questions about his condition after the knock-out loss surfaced. Was battered throughout by the young Cassius Clay, who finally stopped the game fighter in the 5th round. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Tom Prater 27 year-old, 6' 1" 208 lbs. Indiana Heavyweight A tough durable fighter, who could be rated #25. 17-3-1 (8 KO's) On a roll, and undefeated in his last 10-bouts. Was busy, with 6 fights in 1976, prior to fighting Laryy Holmes, in the ill-fated USBA Boxing Championships on ABC-TV. Had upset 6 straight fighters in a row. Was looking to make Larry Holmes, Number 7. vs. Mongo Ortiz vs. Al Jones vs. Randy Stephens vs. Lou Esa vs. Jody Ballard vs. Charlie Johnson Was a confident fighter in late-1976, as was considered the 'Underdog to Watch' in the USBA Tournament. Gave Larry Holmes all he wanted, and more. Was the more aggressive fighter, and shook Holmes a few times. Larry won a close unanimous decision, in a hard fought 8 Round battle. Alejandro Lavorante vs Tom Prater At the time both of these fighters fought Cassius Clay and Larry Holmes, I think Tom Prater may have been the better all-around fighter. Physically stronger, and an ability to take a better punch, as well as a better defensive fighter. Lavorante, clearly a better puncher, but his defensive liability would have been a problem.
1962 Archie Moore on Alejandro Lavorante After watching Lavorante knock-out Von Clay. 'Give me this kid for 1-year. After 12-months of conditioning and leg excercises, this kid will be the next Heavyweight Champion of the World.' 'Next year, he will give Patterson and Liston fits. I boxed 'two' rounds with this kid, and believe me, he can hit. He just needs conditioning, and leg strength.'
At a quick glance I see at least 8 (possibly 10) top contenders/champions among Ali's opponents, but only 3-4 (Norton, Shavers, Cooney and possibly Berbick) among Holmes'. Considering how their careers progressed after this, it really highlights the gulf in quality of their respective records.
altho williams was 1 myth rather then 1 serious contender , Holmes did and still , does have the edge as 1 ATG/LEGEND , and in the careers compared .
Lets see,,,,,,,,,, Archie Moore and Horace Robinson are fairly close in overall achievements. When facing Cassius Clay The Mongoose was 45+ years of age. 5' 11" and 191 lbs. 184-23-10 (130 KO's) #7 Ranked Heavyweight Archie was old and tired... Horace 'Big City' Robinson 25 year of age. 6' 2" and 217 lbs. 5-2-0 (2 KO's) Horace was big and spry!!! Robinson was Atlanta's #3 Rated Heavyweight. And he was coming off 'two' impressive upset wins. W Dec 10,,,Jerry Thompkins (7-2-0) W KO 1,,,,Ricky Wynn (15-1-0) The win over Ricky Wynn was a major upset, as Wynn was considered a can't miss prospect.
Okay, for fun, i will see how Bob Fitzsimmons does: 1. George Foreman 40-0-0 Jim Corbett 2. Joe Frazier 30-1-0 & 32-2-0 James Jeffries 3. Sonny Liston 35-1-0 & 35-2-0 Jack Johnson 4. Ken Norton 30-1-0 & 37-3-0 Tom Sharkey 5. Floyd Patterson 43-4-0 & 55-7-1 Joe Godfrey 6. Jerry Quarry 37-4-4 & 43-5-4 Gus Ruhlin 7. Oscar Bonavena 46-6-1 Peter Maher 8. Jimmy Ellis 30-6-0 Jack O Brien 9. Zora Folley 74-7-4 Paddy Slavin 10. Ernie Terrell 38-4-0 Joe Choynski 11. George Chuvalo 34-11-2 & 66-17-2 George Gardner 12. Ron Lyle 30-2-1 Bill Lang 13. Earnie Shavers 54-5-1 Joe Grim 14. Joe Bugner 43-4-1 & 51-6-1 Mick Dooley 15. Bob Foster 49-5-0 Steve O Donnell 16. Mac Foster 28-1-0 Bill Slavin 17. Karl Mildenberger 49-2-3 Jack Bonner 18. Archie Moore 184-22-11 Jack Dempsey 19. Jimmy Young 17-4-2 Jim Hall 20. Cleveland Williams 65-5-1 Tom Lees 21. Doug Jones 21-3-1 Dan Creedon 22. Henry Cooper 27-8-1 & 33-11-1 Ed Dunkhorst 23. Leon Spinks 7-0-1 Herbert Slade Nowhere near as bad as one would expect. In fact it isnt really quality of opponents that sets Ali apart from Fitz. Size, possibly but not quality. Performance, i would have to think about. Fitz ledger is boosted by a couple old man losses and the one posted for Ali is missing Berbick and Holmes who were still technically opposition. If you except that the level of competition is similar (you need to get over the size factor), It is actually a very interesting comparison. Fitz, incidentally has a lot more names than Ali, that could be added, although we do no little about these guys, due to communication methods, more than anything else. Fitz also has the quicker and more spectacular KOs than Ali has over many fighters. Definitely, the resumes are nowhere near as far apart as you would think, especially if you consider quality of opponent in their own time, as opposed to imaginery head to head ability which is impossible to tell due to lack of film.
Definitely agree,,,,,,,,but I also think Larry Holmes would have the tools to battle both Sonny Liston (1964 and 1965) and Floyd Patterson (1965 and 1972) pretty good too. Both ATG's had remarkable runs. As a note, the 1964 Sonny Liston was age 36, and the 1978 Ken Norton was younger than Sonny, and in better physical condition.
I don't think Larry's run was that remarkable. He had a very impressive consistency, but it's not like he cleaned house or anything. Cooney was probably the best fighter he beat (considering his shape when they fought) and that doesn't really wow me. Second up would probably be an ageing and disillusioned Norton.
Liston's age is very much up for debate. Don't try and pass this off as fact. It's your speculation, you troll.
1) Sonny Liston was born in 1928 (FACT). 2) Just who else could Larry Holmes fought in that run. 3) You're the TROLL, I started this post. 4) Are you done doing Ali's laundry yet, because after you're done, you can start folding the sheets,,,,,Mr. Houseboy. BOKAJ = ALI's HOUSEBOY
you're the liston guy here so who am i to argue. but i thought he himself wasn't sure of his own birthdate and that 1928 was the best guess that he had
What is wrong with you? Seriously? If it was Tyson you had this hang-up on I would have guessed he'd robbed and then ass-raped you in a New York alley sometime in the early 80's, but that isn't really Ali's MO, so I'm a bit lost here... Btw: You are a troll.