Chalrey Burley. Just how good was he?? Was he the greatest boxer never to win a title? There is very little film on Burley, but it seems like he had an amazing style. Never stopped in 98 bouts. Was really a true light middle by todays standards, but fought anyone from welterweight to heavyweight. Any truth to Sugar Ray and Lamotta "ducking" him??
I do wonder how their styles would match up (Burley v. Charles). Burley was both slick and had a great chin.
Charley Burley was a great fighter, with a style similar to Marshall and Moore as can be seen on film - I've often wondered where it was developed as all 3 fighters moved around quite a bit(?), they spent alot of time fighting each other (the Black murderers row), so I wonder if it was picked up in shared gym's with same trainers and such - West Coast, I don't know! Burley fought about a dozen historical names and a dozen more, at least, Top noted fighters, I beleive he could have won a title at WW and/or MW IF given the chance. But Burley was NOT unique in this department and too many people forget that, or just don't realise it. Boxing is littered with Great Fighters that never got their chance - that's what Ducking & Protection is all about, there were literally dozens, even hundreds of great fighters who could have, should have been world champions, loads of them! there are people on every board and forum who freely recognise this fact of Boxing History, but sadly too many who don't know it, consider it, or want to know it. But that doesn't change the truth, top fighters and top men are just that, and given their chance or being allowed to compete more regularily against one another would make for a whole new history. Burley was great, as were many of his contemporaries, pre, post and during his time!
:good excelent post!! Burley was a great fighter as good and better than some champions but as you say he doesn’t have the monopoly on this point. As "good as a champion" but not ever being one is not that exclusive. Boxing is about timing, the right fight and right champion has to come up at the right time otherwise a fighter has to rely on really standing out as a real phenomenon, but in Burleys day there was so many other great fighters. At welter burley would have to beat zivic or Armsrtong. zivic did beat burley one time anyway so its not like it would be a given for charlie to dominate a division. middleweight was burleys best chance for the title but he was between weights or unrated when soose was champ, a fighter he could have beat again if given the chance. The timing was wrong. At middleweight burley only appeared in the ratings once the title was frozen in 1942 anyway. However, during a 1940-43 peak burley only remained unbeaten in one year- 1941. as a middleweight (1941 onwards) on any given night Burley was just as likely to lose as win against albeit great fighters bivins, Loyd marshall, holman wiliams or there was georgie abrams and young ezzard charles who burley could not beat. This is why I find it difficult to say Burly would be a certain champion. The problem with charlie was when newyork was the centre of the universe he only fought there one time and that was at st nicks. Charlie was even top of the bill against a tomato can, won in one round but was never asked back. incidentally new Yorker rocky graziano drew that night in his 4th fight down the card. Grazianos career later took off in a way Burley was unable to because Rocky was no doubt a better draw, local and white..but by no means a better fighter than burley. However what also helped launch Graziano was a sensational win as the "opponent" at the right time on the right night that made the kind of mainstream splash that was absent from the career of the very talented Burley. Boxing is all about timing.
Zivic did beat him, in the first of their three bouts when Burley was greenish, and it was a hairline decision where it is possible to find newspaper reports that disagree vehemently with the decision in favour of the local, white favourite. The following two fights were clear decisions for Charley, free from any controversy. It seems pretty unlikely to me that Zivic has a serious chance during the period of time you are talking about, Zivic's title years. As for Armstrong, that's possibly the most blatant duck of any fighter to Burley, you have to ask yourself why, though nothing is given. LaMotta is quoted as saying, "what do I need Burley for when I have Zivic?" when asked about Charley. Burley is a favourite to beat LaMotta I think.
C, Very interesting post of yours.My dad asked me when I was a youngster to join him at St Nicks Arena in 1942,to watch a prelim fighter he favored. I said i 'd rather be with my chums. Well in the main event he saw Charley Burley flatten a Phil McQuillan in the first round,and raved about him. But I did see Rocky Graziano a few times fight prelims in NY. No one ever brought such excitement to a fight as the YOUNG dead-end kid Rocko Barbella .:good
didnt they used to call rocky, tommy graziano in his very early days? i believe i have an old radio fight where they called him that.isnt tommy his real first name?
S,Rocky's name was Thomas Rocco Barbella. He took the name Rocky Graziano,so he could fight as he was A.W.O.L.from the army after flattening an officer. First time I saw Rocky was in Stillmans gym ,while he was AWOL in civvies ,watching the boxers train. Little did I know then ! That memory of that moment, I shall never forget...
wow what a piece of history! Your dad must have caught Burley at his peak and this proves burley must have went down rather well with the NY fans. For you to remember this he must have made quite an impression on your father. I have often thought that new York fans were extremely knowledgeable but perhaps a little spoilt by all that talent that Burley may have totally passed them by. Mr bienstock was there that many really great fighters then? can you recall if Burley was an acquired taste more for the aficionados than regular spit and saw dust fans? I kind of imagine if fighters of burleys magnitude headline a card then doesnt get asked back it can only be because a better house could be made with another headliner? Did you and your father ever feel talented fighters were finding it hard to compete with local fighters for slots on New York shows? I imagine there was no shortage of headline material fighters from the wrong neck of the woods. I understand it was hard for an outsider to break into NY but I think this was where a fighter had to set his stall at that time.
C, let me answer part of your questions this way.During those days in the early 1940's,when Burley fought in ST.Nicks.in NY. [and I missed the opportunity to see Burley], there was a boxing card EVERY NIGHT of the week [sans Sunday].EVERY night in the metropolitan area of NYC. To be a main event boxer in MSG, you had to have at least 40-50 bouts. There was so much competition in boxing that fighters honed there skills fighting so often against the best available boxers,and developed skills seldom seen today except for a few top-notchers today. They had great full-time trainers in that golden age era,as I would see at Stillmans gym,barking instructions at their fighters,who toed the mark. Except for a Tony Galento,[one of a kind],the heavyweights seldom had excessive baggage around their stomaches as seen today. As for Charley Burley,my dad came home from the fight and next morning raved about Burley to me. I read the sports page in my paper and the writer implied that "probably be the last time we see Burley fight in NY,he scared away the competition".I remember reading this article, and it WAS the first and last time Burley fought in NY. Ray Robinson could have tackled Burley in 1942. Robinson fought Zivic, Servo. Izzy Janazzo,LaMotta, tough middleweight Vic Dellicurti those days but he and George Gainsford wisely chose NOT TO fight Burley. Ray,could have,tested his mettle against Burley,and other members of the"murderers row",but avoided such dangerous foes. Robby was no HARRY GREB. who loved these challenges,feared NO ONE,and took on EVERYONE. CHEERS C....
:good excellent answer mr beinstock. Charley burley was clearly a classic "mr who needs him". You have confirmed this. George gainford had a special talent of his own on his hands but he knew his onions. why chance his kid against a capable pro with similar talents, who presents as much risk as an actual champion for no money and no belt on the line? It does make you wonder because they kept ray pretty active when the titles were frozen, so any risk was diminished.. burley is a notable absence from his resume. where as you rightly say, It just goes to show you could put greb in with anyone
MSG sold out many times on Friday Night bouts,especially when the great Beau Jack fought. In one year Beau sold out the Garden SEVEN TIMES.Local boxing Arena's like Ridgewood Grove, Broadway Arena, St Nicks, Sunnyside Arena, Queensboro Arena,Fort Hamilton Arena, Dexter Park,were usually filled to capacity in the 1940s,keeping the fighters busy learning their trade. Every neighberhood had local boxing prospects,competing against other neighberhood boxing favorites. Every young boxer dreamed of getting a prelim bout in MSG, the mecca of boxing. Yep, 1940s was a "golden age "era for great fighters in NY,and MSG...
According to boxrec Sheppard fought neither one of Charles or Burley , are you confusing one of them with Walcott , Moore or Maxim ?