Duran of Montreal vs Leonard of the rematch

:good I've always enjoyed The Howard Cossel style of disguised interogation which good old Larry Merchant attempts to employ. I remember watching this way back then & it shows how uncomfortable Leonard was IMO when being subjected to this style of interview technique as Cossel in effect had the standing & status of a high court judge & this bloke could total your carreer in a micro second.

When Cossel summons YOU you'd better show up & answer the questions put to you in ABCDEFGH......format & if you attempted to vear away or twist & riggle out or evade he'd chop yer legs off & go compare that interview/court hearing with later Leonard interviews where the commentaters/reporters just pandered to his every soundbite.

It goes without saying that Duran proberbly never knew what they were injecting him with to get the weight down & no ****ing doctor was ever going to admit it.

I think poor old Ray Arcel just about had enough of being in the company of the parasites that flocked around Duran. He had no control, **** knows what was going on in that camp behind the scenes & whatever it was it was enough for Arcel to pack it in along with Freddie Brown. Interesting to hear that Duran was already wanting to retire after Montreal & why not after that length of career & succces he had, 30 years of age back then & especially for the smaller men was posivitally gereatric in today's comparison.

What a ****in nerve of Leonard stating that he'd never fight Duran again as it would be bad for boxing & it would destroy any promoter that ever tried to put it on

He wanted no part of Duran again, well not until he was well over the hill & another 20LB's heavier. Just like he never re-matched Hearns/Benitez or fought Hagler when opportunity beckened & public demanded.

 

I'd like to have seen Leonard and Duran's third fight take place in 1983/84. Leonard scuppered that though,owing to his Frank Sinatra comeback ins and outs. Would have been a better fight than what happened in '89.

 

When he climed into the ring after Duran has slaughtered Moore & raised Duran's arm for a photo shoot i thought now's the chance to get the rubber up & running but Bob Arum went onto bigger things with Hagler/Duran in NOV83.

But what with Roberto's sterling effort against Marvin then that would have been the spot on time for the re-match in May84 instead of Leonard fighting Kevin Howard & going by that Leonard performance Duran would have knocked the **** out in style BIG TIME:deal

There was no reason for Leonard not to have fought Duran in 83 or 84 as being with his global name & always ringside keeping himself in the limelight at other protagonists expence he could have clicked his fingers & the fight would have been set in stone. But as history has told us about Leonard he wanted absolutly no-part of Duran/Benitez/Hearns or Hagler while they were still on their game.

 

I heard Leonard say other things. That he fought Duran's fight in the first fight and was going to fight him at his own game, and he said he did and almost beat him at his own game. He then said, but I knew I could fight my fight and beat Duran and I did. He said this in the preview to the Hearns rematch in 1989. He said "I wanted to beat that man at his own game!! I tried. And I almost did it!!" He said once when he fought his fight he neutralized what Duran did best.
Benitez did not last as long as Duran after their fight. Benitez only had a couple more years of prime fighting after he fought at 154, and as most people say Duran won a title years after Benitez did, so Duran being able to say he was old and out of shape does not really work, I don't think. Benitez was a great champion at 154. Too bad he met up with Hearns, he could have fought another 2-3 years defending that title but he lost confidence and moved up in weight, which was a bad move for Wilfred.

Using fights where Duran was thought to give a good accounting of himself and didn't is significant. Those years from 1980 to 1984 were Duran's superfight years. They are significant. And he was only 28-32 years old in those fights. He had fought at 154 for years and was given a title shot against Wilfred when he was only 30 years old. He fought another 20 years. Regardless of the excuses, Duran never beat another great except Ray. What ranks him so high, and if he never beat another great, why are the excuses accepted when he lost to greats, since he never beat many greats. Seems like had he beaten greats, then we could say ok he beat these greats, so he would have had he been in shape. He really never had fought the level of Leonard,Hearns,Benitez and Hagler prior to 147 pounds. What is the evidence he would have beaten them? Beating Ray once, but losing the rematch and rubbermatch? Beating DeJesus and Buchanan? You cannot compare a Dejesus and Buchanan to greats like Hearns and Benitez.

 

I see your point and they are good points, But I heard Leonard say other things. That he fought Duran's fight in the first fight and was going to fight him at his own game, and he said he did and almost beat him at his own game. He then said, but I knew I could fight my fight and beat Duran and I did. He said this in the preview to the Hearns rematch in 1989. He said "I wanted to beat that man at his own game!! I tried. And I almost did it!!" He said once when he fought his fight he neutralized what Duran did best.
Benitez did not last as long as Duran after their fight. Benitez only had a couple more years of prime fighting after he fought at 154, and as most people say Duran won a title years after Benitez did, so Duran being able to say he was old and out of shape does not really work, I don't think. Benitez was a great champion at 154. Too bad he met up with Hearns, he could have fought another 2-3 years defending that title but he lost confidence and moved up in weight, which was a bad move for Wilfred.

Using fights where Duran was thought to give a good accounting of himself and didn't is significant. Those years from 1980 to 1984 were Duran's superfight years. They are significant. And he was only 28-32 years old in those fights. He had fought at 154 for years and was given a title shot against Wilfred when he was only 30 years old. He fought another 20 years. Regardless of the excuses, Duran never beat another great except Ray. What ranks him so high, and if he never beat another great, why are the excuses accepted when he lost to greats, since he never beat many greats. Seems like had he beaten greats, then we could say ok he beat these greats, so he would have had he been in shape. He really never had fought the level of Leonard,Hearns,Benitez and Hagler prior to 147 pounds. What is the evidence he would have beaten them? Beating Ray once, but losing the rematch and rubbermatch? Beating DeJesus and Buchanan? You cannot compare a Dejesus and Buchanan to greats like Hearns and Benitez.

 

Ray did not want part of them. He knew his legacy was secure, so after 1982 and his comebacks, he would use timing and weight and other issues to get the big advantages. He knew the other guys would give in to certain requirements just to fight him. With Hearns it almost derailed.

 

Ali's true colors were that he dug deeper than he ever had, and made Frazier go through absolute hell to get that win. He gave every ounce he had. Even in the closing seconds, he's still throwing a double jab. To me that defines him as a warrior who never quits.

The exact thing goes for Leonard. They showed flashiness before, and when their hood was opened under pressure, we saw a big shiny, V8 inside that was ready to take a beating and keep on ticking.

Duran on the other hand, has the questionable honor of being in one of the most disgraceful quitting jobs in boxing history, in his prime. To me that disqualifies him from a top5 ATG spot and given his entire record, I wouldn't have him in the top10, either. It seems like everyone's giving him a pass for every one of his losses because he wasn't prepared, sick, unmotivated or similar. He's a professional boxer for ****'s sake, it's his job to be prepared to fight; if he isn't, then that takes credit away from him, not from the guy who beat his ass.

 

Duran was the best ever and you know it.

 

Dunno if I'd agree with you to that extent A. I recall ODLH storming forward and unloading a pretty decent combo with a few solid bodyshots near the end of a round close to the end. He was definitely weight-weakened, but I dunno if it was to the extent that people think. I think Manny was far too fast for him, and he was scared to open up for fear of getting slashed to ribbons. If he'd been in there with someone who wasn't so fast, you'd have seen the same decent/solid past-prime Hoya performance as we seen vs Forbes.

 

:huh I think it's a **** point. It basically means that SRL has no ring IQ at all.

The whole point of having a skillset like an SRL or a Whitaker is that you can adapt mid-fight (once or more times) to win a fight. SRL did it against Hearns, he was capable of it.

I think PowerPuncher just says anything whatsoever to push his own agenda on any issue. He says this here:

But you know for a fact he says the opposite whenever Floyd Mayweather is concerned. "It would be stupid to keep fighting someone when you have the skills to switch it up and box them", etc.


And this point:

is just speculative bollocks with no foundation whatsoever. SRL didn't even get dropped by that punch, there's no way its effects lasted from the 2nd round to the mid-stage of a 15-round fight, no way. The evidence doesn't support it either, Ray was fighting like a demon throughout, his mind was clear and his legs were strong for much of the early & middle rounds.

This guy just spouts whatever bull**** is convenient at the time. :deal

 

Opinions are split on that down the middle in ESB land, everywhere else Ive read & heard the majority favours the `SRL fought Duran`s fight` version..... Duran being your favourite fighter & having his best overall performance being put down is not an easy thing to accept (a bit like with me & Morales-Pac 1 - gloves, blood etc etc) & I do think it was 1 of the best ever performances by an ATG vs another ATG.

Leonard on that night in that style fighting with that intensity would likely have beaten anyone else but Duran, Roberto was THAT good that night but I dont feel he beats the very best Leonard in a H2H match, I think Leonard is a better h2h fighter than Duran... vs each other & other opponents.

 

:deal

 

Then what is your answer to this question:

 

Ray Leonard's words not mine

 

Montreal Robert Duran - 295,000
New Orleans Leonard - 300,000

The thing is though, that they both at some point in the first fight turned SSJ1. Neither went SSJ1 in the 2nd fight. SSJ1 Duran reached a higher peak power level than Leonard did, and it was the 1t fight circumstances that triggered it. So i guuess you have to say Duran wins the 1st of the series under any circumstance.

A more interesting matchup in my opinion would be the SSJ1 Duran of Montreal Vs the improved hyperbolic time chamber Ray Leonard of Hearns I.

I imagine Montreal Duran vs Hearns I Leonard would both turn SSJ2, and it would go something like this..
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxKLeWIRzKQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxKLeWIRzKQ[/ame]