Favored over Robinson?

Here, I'll toss out some names for consideration. I'm not saying I actually believe all of what I'm suggesting, just trying to stimulate further conversation.

At 160, Hagler could do it, and could well be favored, but he'd have to be very smart and stick to his history best southpaw jab and style, taking Ray's jab out of the equation. If Marv tried to get cute and go orthodox like he fatally tried with SRL, he'd do half of Robby's work for him.

Monzon was very smart, so he'd be a more reliable bet to win. Don't know if he'd be favored going in though, and he'll be forever underestimated by those who don't understand his steel mentality.

It seems that most who saw both peak Robinson and Greb (especially in 1919), would favor Harry to take Ray.

Walker was never dethroned at 160, but did get beaten pretty conclusively by a past prime Greb in Harry's final successful defense. The rematch with Hudkins shows that Mickey could execute skillful movement himself at 160, and understood something of Ray's MW MO. But Loughran did outbox him, and SRR obviously occupied the same elite class of stylist with Tommy.

Fitz was a monstrous puncher, never truly outgrew 160, and Ray never tested himself against that kind of lethal power. He'd be fast enough to maybe avoid the head shots from the Cornishman, but what happens when Bob hits him underneath?

Now, favored at 147? Armstrong was emphatic that it would not have been him, but odds makers and fans may have disregarded Hank's self disclaimer. Tommy Ryan was never defeated at the weight, so many might make the case for him. For me, it's much harder to favor anybody over Robby at 147.

In 1957, Fleischer had as his all time welterweights:

1--Barbados Joe Walcott
2--Mysterious Billy Smith
3--Jack Britton
4--Ted Kid Lewis
5--Ray Robinson
6--Harry Lewis
7--Willie Lewis
8--Henry Armstrong
9--Barney Ross
10-Jimmy McLarnin

Later, Nat inserted Ray at 160 in the number five slot, beneath:

1--Stanley Ketchel
2--Tommy Ryan
3--Harry Greb
4--Mickey Walker

Below Robby, he had:

6--Frank Klaus
7--Billy Papke
8--Les Darcy
9--Mike Gibbons
10-Jeff Smith

Could any lightweight have pulled it off? The undefeated Packey McFarland might have been a decent candidate for favoring, but again, it's very difficult to project a case for it. Duran would have been no picnic for Robby either, or the other two of the LW high trinity, Gans and Leonard. El Cholo was the most durable of the three though. Joe and Benny were seen to get hurt and dropped on film (by McGovern and Tendler respectively).

 

Honestly, below 160, you just can't favor anybody. Too good, too fast, too much firepower, too slick.

SRL in my opinion had the best shot. He was super durable of body, chin and mind, had great speed and punch himself, and certainly possessed great boxing skills. He cannot be favored, though, because I think in most of the categories, SRR had a small but not unnoticeable edge. Think SRL had the better jab, and may have been quicker of hand(I think its about a wash), but that'd be it.

Hagler and Monzon could be favored at middleweight, and maybe should be. SRR is everything that bothered Hopkins, and his speed would be more than enough to give BHop fits.

I think Greb based on reports may have had the style to do it, but I've not seen him, so I cant comment.

I'm gonna throw out Roy Jones. I know he was pre-prime at middle, but he hit like a truck, was actually faster than Ray, and was pretty unorthodox. He might get it done, but I couldn't favor him.

 

At 147 I think his biggest challenges would be...besides Gavilan of course, from SRL and Napoles...but I think he would edge them both.

 

This is true to me..Robbies speed and movement would be the key vs Hopkins.

 

D, Benny Leonard was never floored by Lew Tendler in their two bouts. Leonard was hurt by Southpaw Lew Tendler,dropped by richie mitchell,and
southpaw Charley White,but got off the floor and kod both fighters. Ray Robinson was dropped by tommy Bell and just about KOD by Artie Levine.
I have to rate Benny Leonard as the greater lightweight as Benny ruled the 135 lb division for SEVEN YEARS, while Ray was a lightweight for about 1-2
years.
Aside- today we forget the great welterweights Jack Britton and Ted Kid Lewis
who between these two welterweights ,had Five Hundred and Twenty Six fights.:good

 

ray leonard would give robinson trouble at 147. i think hearns, pac, and mayweather give him a good fight but i wouldn't favor any of them over robinson. there's other greats like napoles, griffith, and walker that should be mentioned here as well.

at 160, it's completely different. robinson is very overrated imo at middle. he was very beatable at this weight. monzon, hagler, hopkins, jones, tiger and burley all stand a great chance of beating robinson at middle. turpin gave robinson hell twice and he's not near the fighter of anyone i've listed above.

 

Yeah, I realize that Burt. Don't mind me. Sometimes I fail to be sufficiently specific. When I said "respectively," I was referring to Tendler only buckling Benny on the second half of that comment. (Occasionally, I rely too much on the inference of shared knowledge here among us. Thoreau also criticized his own writing as "ingenious" in the same context.)

Duran did come up from LW to win over one of the greatest WWs in Montreal. My speculation was over what LWs might have been able to move up successfully against SRR. (Naturally, I have to defer to your considerable authority on this. I'm trying to meet the thread challenge as a "Devil's advocate" for much of this.) As Duran did in Montreal, so might Benny have been on the verge of doing when he got disqualified against Britton. If he'd knocked out Jack, what a titanic achievement! Then, next decade, Armstrong batters Ross. (Gans reportedly getting the better of Barbado's Joe is also monstrous. Some phenomenal lightweights have been out there. And what if Ambers had decided to claim the crown at 147 as well as 135 after Armstrong II?)

I thought Fleischer's 1957 ratings might be helpful in bringing up some names which might otherwise have been overlooked.

 

At MW.
I would pick Monzon over him. Neutralising Robison all to a win on the judges score cards.UD.
I would say Hagler has a decent shot.
I always though the MW RJJ might have a go do to his physical advantages and style.

At WW i wouldn't pick anyone.
SRL has a shot.
Maybe Hearns could pull a UD over 12.

 

Burley might not be a bad pick. Greb, as a swarming crowder was exactly the kind of fighter that Ray hated.

 

RJJ would have a shot.

 

Second this for the most part.

 

How would Montreal Duran do against Ray?

 

Hearns would make it interesting with the reach

 

sweet pea would present problems that srr had never faced before

 

Probably give him hell, but lose a close decision.