Cud leonard rly beat Norris in the prime ? b honest .

Yes but you're completely and utterly insane.

 

Ray takes him apart

 

Terry Norris wasn't nearly as good as redrooster thinks. Julian Jackson wasn't half the boxing technician Ray was, and he tracked him down inside of two rounds. The Leonard that redrooster describes, (the one who shines against slow, untalented competition but not otherwise) is Terry Norris to a T.
the element of the Norris fight that redrooster leaves out is the fact that it was a shell of the prime Leonard, which is why this is a mythical prime-v-prime thread. He seems to talk about it as if Norris exposed a prime Leonard instead of what actually happened. Norris exposed an old, finished for the top level or anywhere near it, Leonard.
Norris was his eras Zab Judah, nothing more.

 

The only reason Norris lost to Jackson was because of Jackson's physical attributes. When we think of Julian Jackson we think of Herol Graham, Buster Drayton, Terry Norris. Jackson was FOR REAL

Ray Leonard tho was not nearly as reputable a hitter but more the stylist, the runner, the cutie. He had no choice and had to get in close. Unfortunately, this is NOT Ray Leonard's kind of fight

Physically, Jackson was awesome. Ray Leonard was never awesome, especially at 154 when facing larger opponents. His path to sucess was either face some mediocrity or wait a few years to face a mediocrity

and if you think Ray was slow in the Norris fight, the truth is that Norris only made him LOOK slow because Ray is not used to facing anyone w speed

Don't get me wrong. I LIKE Ray Leonard but there are certain opponents he just cannot beat and will never do well against. Do you think it's any coincidence he had a line of opponents resembling Davey Green/Don lalonde types?

Kalule?

And that choice of Howard as an opponent, all I can say is

 

With all due respect RedRooster,Leonard mangles Norris.I freely admit that I HATE Leonard,but he was quick enough to stop 2 terrific speedsters in Hearns and Benitez.I look at Norris' resume and am just not particularly impressed with it.Knowing Norris' suspect chin(Leonard had a very good one),Tommy would have stopped him within 3 while Benitez would have made him miss all night.And what I mostly remember about Norris is that he kept calling JCC out when Chavez was still fighting at 140.Even though I was delighted when he beat past it Leonard's ass,I still keep that fight in its proper perspective.Nice avatar,btw!

 

I think Norris was a bit better than Judah p4p,but I pretty much agree with this assessment.:good

 

Thanks Clinton

let me just say that Ray really made a mistake when he chose Norris as his opponent just as he made one in agreeing to DWTS. NO BOXER should have to go thru that

As for Norris let's remember he was naturally bigger and also that Leonard did not burn down buildings with jr middles.

Also remember the problems in dispatching Kalule in 81, Howard in 84

Also that he actually got hurt by Geraldo. If anyone's getting mangled it's leonard

So what if he whipped Kalule? My man Moore with just 10 fights did the same a few months later

Had SRL 154 wins over McCallum, Hearns, Moore etc, you could make a good case but does he HAVE them?

What DOES he have? He's got no defenses at that weight. My man Terry holds the RECORD for defenses

Besides, how's he going to stop Terry when he cant catch him? That was another problem Ray had in their fight

And Benitez? He dont really have any speed. AND, he fought flatfooted. Check out the clips of Wilfred's other fights. That's why he can't do nothing in the fight and illustrates my point perfectly: the faster boxer will always outspeed the slower one

That's what Ray do to Wilfred, and that's what Norris do to Leonard

It happened in the Camacho-Davis fight too. Camacho was still near his prime and much too fast. This led to a one sided contest much like Norris-Leonard, Leonard-Benitez

You got to be able to take it to a fighter like Norris

But the problem is, what if Terry don't LET you hit him? That's what happened in their fight

This isnt anything like Jackson-Norris. Jackson was a bulldozer, built for that type of fight. Ray wasn't and can't compare with Jackson's physique

On the subject of chins: if Terry got the bad chin then how come it's Ray that kept going to the floor?

 

I would favour Leonard. Norris had an iffy chin and won a lot of fights based on his speed and power - but Leonard is even faster and has one of the best chins in the business.

 

except when it came to Howard, Norris, Hearns, Lalonde, & Camacho

Hagler had one of the best chins in the business, not Leonard

 

cmon man.
most of those fights he's past his prime, which probably doesn't help him taking a punch imo

 

27 isnt past your prime

and it's not like he had a 100 fights and was losing the last several before getting his butt beat

when he met Norris, Ray only had 38 fights! Compare that with Monzon with over 100 fights at age 35

Yet people always put Ray over Monzon.

the way I look at it, Ray had been winning the last 11 years. But it took a speedster to finally beat him

ask any boxer who they have more trouble with...someone that is slow, and dont hit hard (Kalule, Green, Hagler-87 version, Duran-89 version, Hearns-89 version)

those people were not sharp at all. Terry was sharp, fast, mobile and look how one sided the results were

I'm telling you, speed kills. If Ray could beat this kind of fighter we'd have seen it earlier

He had his chance to face Nunn but he wasted everyone's time w meaningless rematches.

Ray was afraid of speed! I suspected it since the Hagler fight

I became even more adamant about him by the way he went around Mike, instead picking tomato cans

The Norris fight was the nail in the coffin that allowed me to say "see, I told you!"

 

Always a good arguement on this one. But truthfully, SRL post Finch, ws NOT prime Leonard... Like Ali wasn`t the same as Clay. Prime SRL vs prime TTN speed is damn close. My question with this has always been Norris chin, or lack of. I`ll give you Jackson ( murderous power) but Mullings and Brown ??? I believe that SRL was a better puncher than either of those guys and a whole other level talent wise... This is where it gets rtciky, TNN was a true 154 where as SRL was more suited for 147. It`s a great fight, but trying to say that SRL was even remotely close to his prime when they DID fight, is just ludicrous... What does anyone think Thomas Hearns right hand would have done to TNN very dentable chin ?

 

Perfect !

 

Leonard for some reason always gets compared with Ali :huh

Not knocking him but he's no Ali. He's more a copycat without the personality. I've seen Leonard on interviews recently. He takes critism politely and swallows his pride way too easy. Ali wouldnt

But regardless, I dont see why PRIME Leonard gets as much hype as he does. We know it took him 9 to dispatch soft hitting, slow Kalule. How do you figure that Ray Leonard is going to even lose a close one to Norris if he can't handle speed?

We know he couldnt becuz bypassed most of the ones out there

Nunn, he didnt want any part of him

Didnt want no part of prime Hagler. Or Pryor. Or Curry

It's his own fault. He kept passing up younger fighters for older, slower, stiffer fighters

as far as chin goes, I find it downright bizarre how anyone could question wehter or not Norris could take leonard's shots when it was Leonard that was getting bounced off the canvas. Norris mustve hurt the guy at least 12 times!


When did Ray ever hurt Norris? Never. My man Norris was never in the least bit trouble, not even when Ray pasted him point blank in the 11th 6 straight times. My man even won the stare down at the begginning of the fight. Ray cant even look him in the eye. But you see Terry like they say "cool as a cucumber"

I bet Terry's pulse don't even get above normal.

and the speed? My man has that edge overwhelmingly. and we all know that Ray could not handle another man's speed. To tell the truth, I dont even think Ray couldve held his own against Hopkins

Now look at my man Norris how well he does against speedsters. WHo else got as much speed as Taylor?

Nobody ever likes to talk about that fight becuz of the fact it made Norris look so good

and I dont care what anyone says, Terry has a hook that Ray feared walking into which is why you see him often throughout the fight following Terry half heartedly. Every fighter knows that it is much easier to land the hook than the right cross. The lead left whether it be the jab or the hook, will have a far better chance of landing than the cross which is why you see Tommy's jab landing much more than his cross in their fight

and you can best believe that a hook from 154 pound Norris is a lot more damaging from 145 pound hearns

I've seen Norris put down alot of people with a single hook, including Leonard. Tommy merely keeps you off with his jabs. And with Terry's speed? Ray had better watch out!

Terry could hurt you with either the left OR right. Whether it be to the body or head

Look at all the times he hurt Ray:

The first time happened in the 1st round with a body shot that made Ray stagger into the ropes. It actually made Ray grab onto Terry. Ray had said before the fight that he was going to go to my man's body and chop him down like a tree. Bu it was TN who won the contest of the body blows

Again in round two when Ray try to rough up my man, Terry just got going with blazing right lefts to the head to put him in his place. Then again with that left hook that short circuited the legs.

I believe that one bit of physical trauma was enough to take much of the fight out of Ray

At this point, the crowd was expecting another result like Jackson - Norris but TN is ten times the fighter the media likes to admit

Round 3, Terry, could sense the fear in Ray, that he didnt want it anymore. You could see a fearful, apprehensive Leonard beggining to freeze up and allows Terry to back him into the ropes.

Right left to the body set up a uppercut to the unprotected chin. He was already scared half to death at this point and the uppercut finished him, driving all hope of victory, ANY thoughts of winning from his mind

another great moves in in round 6 when Ray is trying to land the right, misses, then leans on Terry thinking he has no way to retalizte. The moment Ray comes off of him, Terry drills him to the ribs. WHAP!

YOu have to be born brilliant to make these kind of moves. And Terry was brilliant througout the whole night. Ray never wouldve been able to deal with these kind of smarts, or that kind of speed

When did Ray ever deal with anyone as smart, as fast as Norris? It was like facing a youg Cassius Clay who could hit with either hand.

Then there was the 7th when Terry got Ray to follow him to the ropes just the way he wanted, only to drive his jab practically thru the back of Leonard's head!

later in the round, Terry got him to follow him back to the ropes. Here you could see Ray measuring Terry, trying to do a Julian Jackson number on him, only for Terry's blazing hand speed to save the day. It happeneds so fast you could barely see it but there was Ray on the floor again

Ray just never had the kind of experience needed to deal with the Terry Norris' of the world. Terry just had too much of everything going for him and that's the real reason why it was so lopsieded whether or not anyone wants to admit it

my question is, how could Leonard, as great as he was, as experienced as he was, ever hope to deal with a man who could be so brilliant and do so many things?

 

it's SIMPLE. Norris was just such a poor poor ring general. he couldn't dictate the pace of a fight or impose his rhythm on his opponent if his life depended on it and certainly would not do so against one of boxing's naturals like Leonard.