Joe Louis as the P4P greatest

And also ironically, of all the contenders ( with the possible and its only possible) exception of Fitz, Greb and Langford he beat bigger fighters of a larger bodyweight than himself.

 

Thank you for the response. You are probably right.

Although, if Joe had beaten Charles and Marciano, both of theire stars would have dimmed massively. Marciano in particular. But still your point (perhaps inadverdantly, is that Joe needed to extend his dominance after the Marciano fight (for his entire career). I am not sure how this will turn out, but i am going to compare the longevity dominance between the two greats.

Ray won his first world title at 25 years of age in 1941. He won his last World Middleweight title in 1958 at 37 years of age a spectacular reign of 17 years with a few avenged losses thrown in there. Joe Louis won his first world title in 1937 at 24 years of age. Joe Louis retired in 1949 at 34 years of age. Ending a dominant reign of 12 years. This is 5 years shorter than Ray's reign, admittedly although it is worth noting that Rays reign started to stutter at middlewwight and for at least 3 or 4 years, as different opponents were the world champion and by default, considered the best figther in the world (something almost unthinkable during Louis' reign). This equates to Joe being the world champion for a pretty much similar period of time partciularly when you consider that despite retirement, he was still probably considered the best fighter in the world while he was fighting exhibitions up until the period that Ezzard Charles beat him.

So, up to this point, at worst for Joe their careers are very even and you say that Joe needs to perform better in his last couple of past prime performances. The final part of the two (as shot fighters) careers can be compared as follows:

Ray lost twice to Paul Pender, Drew and lost to Gene Fulmer, drew and lost to Moyner and Downs, lost to Joey Giardello and then lost quite a few other fights to guys in his prime he would have kod in a couple of rounds. For the majority of this time, he would have struggled realistically to be a top 10 fighter. A sad end to a great career.

Joe Louis on the other hand, had losses to Ezzard Charles and Rocky Marciano during this period, two all time great fighters at both heavyweight and pound for pound level. Admittedly though, he retired by my maths at 37 years of age. which i suppose was the same time, that Ray himself was finding the best fighters in the world too much for him, but he was still very close to their level.

So, it looks like you are right, in that a win over Marciano would have definetly portrayed him a level above Ray Robinson. But being fair, I really dont think he needed it.

 

Well regarding more fights, it is hard to argue, although i suppose that changes if you put more stock in exhibitions, which largely werent really exhibitions in them days, but still. I am guessing you rate Bob Fitzsimmons, Harry Greb and Sam Langford (possibly among others) ahead of Robinson because of their much higher levels of activity so I cant fault you for consistency.

The second part of your answer thought is very interesting. I am not so sure you are correct, though a comparison of opponents i think would be very interesting.

Braddock, Schmelling, John Henry Lewis, Billy Conn, Joe Walcott and Jimmy Bivins are great pound for pound fighters who are right up there and probably better than anyone Ray faced. Admittedly Joe was the bigger figther in these fights, but this is balanced by him beating good fighters who were bigger than him such as Baer and Carnera. And his dominance was such that no wins were even close to controversial, and he knocked out nearly all of them.

Robinson's great record does not have necessarilly better pound for pound fighters. It includes Angott, Servo, Artine, Gavilan, Olson, Turpin, Fulmer and Graziano. I dont think this list is as solid pound for pound as the fighters on Louis' record, and Robinson struggled against most of these, mostly splitting series and/or decisions against them. And most of them earned their name by beating or nearly beating Robinson.

Yes i know there were orther good names on Ray's record, but there was also plenty of other good names on Joes Record to. Joe has a big edge in quality of figther beaten and dominance over that fighter. Admittedly though Joe was the bigger fighter in most of those cases, but it certainly not quality of fighters beaten that sets Ray aside, imo.