Who beat T. Gibbons worse- Dempsey or Greb?

Greb and Gibbons fought four times Once in 1915 when Greb and Gibbons were still green. Gibbons won handily and gave Greb a beating. The second time they fought in 1920 and Greb was overconfident and possibly undertrained. Both guys were in their prime and at the height of their powers. Gibbons won this fight in dominant fashion as well. Greb begged and begged for a rematch but Gibbons had planned to go to Europe and fight softer competition for easy money. He was unsuccessful in finding an opponent so he came back and faced Greb. This time Greb was prepared and convincingly defeated Gibbons. In their fourt and final fight Gibbons was at the height of his fame and coming off a long series of KOs. He was being built up as the logical contender for Dempsey and it was a foregone conclusion that he would he defeat Greb and then go on to challenge Dempsey. Greb dominated him and won handily. Gibbons made several different excuses for the loss after the fact but the bottom line was that Greb was always faster than Gibbons. In the past Gibbons had been successful against Greb because impeccable timing and skill. For this fight he changed his style and tried to slug and stop Greb. In short he believed his own press after all of the KOs that he was some kind of knockout artist. But Greb was a far higher class of opponent than those that Gibbons had been bowling over and was an excellent study. He devised a fantastic strategy to beat Gibbons by changing his style every round, sometimes multiple times a round. It utterly confused Gibbons and he quickly fell behind. On the few occasions he was able to land his heavier punches they were to few and Greb shook them off and came back with renewed fury. The result a landlside for Greb and his most publicized victory.

 

I think Greb and Dempsey similarly dominated Gibbons if we're comparing the Dempsey fight with Greb's best performance against Tommy. Gibbons was able to beat Greb at other times, though. He never had the chance to go against Dempsey again, so there's no way to know how a series against him would stack up with Gibbon's series of fights against Greb.

 

i think it was mentioned here that Greb-Gibbons IV was his best performance, that would be the best indication if his style. Hope it was filmed, klompton knows about a bunch of Greb fights that were filmed and said he's saving it for his book but I really hope this obut is on that list...

 

And also...

This strikes me as humorous.

 

Greb dominated Gibbons better than Dempsey ever could IMO.

Klompton, seeing as youre well versed on the era how do you think Gibbons-Dempsey would have went in a series? I know you see Dempsey as overrated, could you tell us your reasons?

 

Tommy claimed he could have beaten Dempsey if only he'd been a few years younger, but Jack was also coming off a two year layoff, had to shed nearly 50 pounds from the outset of training, and only needed one attempt to take 12 of 15 rounds in Shelby over a red hot and active challenger, about the same margin Greb produced in his most dominant performance over the younger Gibbons brother. "Don't let anyone tell you Dempsey can't box. He knows all the tricks."-Tommy Gibbons.

In the opening round, Jack unloaded a haymaker that caught Tommy on the forehead, which Gibbons admitted almost paralyzed him. After that bout, somebody asked him if Dempsey hit hard. Not saying a word, he simply removed his hat, exposing all the welts, bumps and bruises all over the top of his head, the same portion of the anatomy Jack Blackburn said Louis would not target in the Godoy rematch, "because that's too hard."

As the challenger was fading fast in the final round, he likely would have been stopped if that one had been scheduled for 20 rounds. If Jack had remained active and in shape between 1921 and 1923, he'd also have probably produced a knockout. (Does anybody know what his weight was for the four rounder with Darcy in July 1922?)

Who actually administered a worse beating? Without footage of Greb decisioning Tommy, we might have a rough time answering that. But it seems apparent that Dempsey's power inflicted more physical damage, and a strong case can be made that a terminally ill Miske had a much better post title shot career than Gibbons.

 

I give Tommy an excellent chance at beating Dempsey in a series. He fought a stupid fight against Dempsey the first time, and a fight that was not typical of his style. He would have faired better in a rematch.

People also need to remember that Gibbons was leading Dempsey over the first five rounds or so of their fight. He was never ahead of Greb on points in the 1922 match.

Its laughable to suggest that Miske had a better post title run than Gibbons who went on to beat Norfolk, Carpentier, and, yes, Miske. Miske won a DQ over Gibbons but that fight was considered a travesty and it was universally accepted that Gibbons had dominated Miske to that point.

 

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Come on, you are not trying to tell me that Carpentier was any good are you

 

No but it was an important win, certainly more important than Miske winning a thrown fight vs Brennan in Brennans last bout.

 

That is a big call that Tommy might a chance at beating Dempsey in a series. I am intrigued as to why you would think this. (Not necessarilly disagreeing at least not until i hear the rationale anyway). Would you care to elaborate?

 

Because at his best Tommy was a precision puncher, and stylist much more in the line with his older brother Mike. By the time he fought Jack Dempsey he had ran up a string of KOs and was being touted in the press as a KO puncher. Like a lot of fighters this went to his head and he took chances that he normally would not have, and tried to sit down on his punches more than in the past, when he would have normally been more focused on scoring points, making the other guys miss, and typically wouldnt have taken those chances (which allowed Dempsey to score) until the later rounds if at all. Even Mike Gibbons criticized his brothers performance and stated that he had gotten away from the St. Paul style in favor of more power. I think in a series, if Gibbons got back to what made him a real force in 1920/1921 he could have made Dempsey miss, made him pay, and gotten out of harms way, piling up points to get a decision and possibly a late stoppage if he was really on top of his game and able to land his left hook to the body with consistency. Put it this way, I dont think Dempsey can do anything different, or better than what he did. Gibbons could definately improve upon his performance. So, yeah, I give Gibbons a good shot of winning at least one fight in a 2, 3, or 4 fight series.

 

klompton, I've seen you mention Jack Dempsey as being overrated, why do you think this? As Duo pointed out, even Gibbons stated Dempsey knew how to box and was not like a guy akin to Ketchel, wading in with only reliance being on power. Just curious becasue your well versed with the era and how Demps as being heralded as the greatest fighter ever, why do you think he is overrated?

 

Billy had 23 more fights after Benton Harbor over the next three years. He got the best of KO Bill over ten rounds the following year, and the best of Weinert over 12 just before knocking out a rematched Jack Renault in 13 rounds. In 116 fights, only Miske and Strib (when Renault was pushing 38) ever stopped Renault. Miske was the second man to stop Billy Shade, and one of only four to do it in Shade's 101 career bouts

He decisioned talented 6'3" former AAU titlist Martin Burke over the championship distance in New Orleans (then later in 1922, again bested Burke over 12 in Denver), joined Gibbons as the only man to ever blow out the slippery Meehan in one (Tommy did it prior to his title shot), and ruined a resurgent Fulton for the final time (also in one), ending a 17 bout two year undefeated streak Fred compiled after Wills. All of his post title shot opponents had winning records except for blank slate Bud Ryder.

Tommy had less than half the number of matches after Shelby that Billy had after Benton Harbor. He won all 11 between Dempsey and Tunney. Ten of these were knockouts, with only Carp going the distance. Fortunately for him, Norfolk and Bloomfield were filmed for posterity, and his power looks awesome in both. (Miske apparently does not have the benefit of any extant footage aside from Dempsey.) Norfolk lasted the longest of these ten stoppage victims, going into round six.

Carp, Bloomfield, Norfolk and Tiny Jim Herman are the outstanding names on Tommy's post Shelby resume before Tunney.

Aside from Gibbons himself 2X, and Brennan 2X, the best names on Miske's resume after Dempsey are Fulton, Renault 2X, Bob Roper 2X, Martin Burke 2X, Weinert and Shade. His 15 fights in 1922 alone is more than Tommy's entire post Shelby total.

Miske had more bouts, more wins, and beat more good opponents more times than Gibbons after their respective title shots, even taking away the DQ Billy was awarded over Tommy, and his last match with Brennan.