What Middleweights could do what Roy Jones and Toney did?

Greb.


Yeah that's it.

 

Hogwart's finest Giardello couldve UD'ed anyone

 

Julio Cesar Chavez Jr

 

Well Ellis, Patterson, Charles, Fitz all managed it too

 

Byrd did it as well. Even though you could consider him a true heavyweight because he fought in the division almost his entire career.

 

Greb and Walker proved that they could have done it in a weaker era while still able to weigh in under 160.

Dempsey dethroned Willard in Toledo on July 4, 1919. On that same day in Tulsa, Greb thrashed Bill Brennan before a record crowd in Tulsa, Harry's first of two bouts over the championship distance that year. (At this stage, only IBHOFers Levinski, Miske, Dempsey and Greb held official wins over KO Bill, aside from an early DQ affair with Joe Cox.) If Greb had gotten to Jess first, he might well have pulled off a decision over the first six months of his greatest campaign. Before July was out, he was beating up Joe Chip before some of the same Ohio fight goers who witnessed Dempsey's coronation (and in the process, avenged the only loss where he was ever punched out).

By the time July rolled around, Greb had already beaten Miske, reigning LHW Champ Levinski 2X, Brennan 2X, Meehan, Wiggins 2X, Mike Gibbons 2X, Bartley Madden and Houck 2X. Dempsey may have peaked in Toledo, but it's entirely possible that Greb peaked in Tulsa the very same day. Harry scaled 176 for Tommy Robeson at the end of January, and still looked great. For Willard, he might have made 180, reportedly Dempsey's true weight at the opening bell in Toldeo. (Kearns loaded a hard training Jack up on milk and bananas before the weigh-in, temporarily water logging him to 187 to skew the odds.)

Those who experienced and witnessed Greb's speed almost unanimously said he was the fastest man in the sport, but his durability was far greater than RJJ's, while his work rate ridiculously surpassed Toney's. Neither Roy or James ever went beyond 12 rounds, while Harry took 17 of 20 in a New Orleans date with undefeated Augie Ratner. (In 1923, Ratner would decisively beat Ted Lewis over this same distance in London, a distance the Kid specialized at.)

Walker may well have been the best heavyweight in the world in 1930 and 1931, going 21-0-1 during those two years, beating Risko 2X, Swiderski 2X (once while drunk), Bearcat and other veteran opponents. In fact, it can be suggested that Mickey was already the best heavyweight in the world by the time he made his final defense at 160 against Ace Hudkins in October 1929. Sharkey had just eliminated Loughran from immediate contention for Tunney's vacated HW Title less than four weeks earlier, and Mickey would remain undefeated until Risko III in June 1932, a 26-0-1 stretch officially marred only by the draw against Sharkey, which referee Arthur Donovan gave to Mickey 11-4.

 

Well, do you think there are any middle weights who could have taken the HW title during one of its strong periods and against one of its strong champions? A bit unfair, I know, but I'm curious to see what people think.

 

Stanley Ketchel gave it a shot. If that were Tommy Burns or perhaps Hart, he might have accomplished it. Jake Lamotta wanted to, but he would have been slaughtered.

I'm still trying to recall which Heavyweight title of note Toney won without testing positive for the juice.

 

The all-important IBA heavyweight title. More important than Barkley's WBB title atleast.

 

Sharkey looked impressive beating up Carnera immediately after drawing with Walker, and there are many who consider him to have been a legitimate great at this time.

What Fitz did to Corbett needs to be contemplated in light of Gentleman Jim's subsequent showing in his first bout with Jeffries. I've made the case before that Corbett at his peak could have been the greatest heavyweight of the Queensbury era prior to Dempsey, until dissipated by drink.

Tunney and Greb were never going to have a peak for peak clash, Harry having been at his two eyed best in 1919, and Gene getting there for his final match with Heeney in 1928. However, one of my earliest contributions here at ESB Classic suggested that Tunney could have retained the title until Louis came along, if Gene had been forced to continue after being wiped out in 1929. Fleischer had Tunney as his number eight HW in 1957. A past peak Greb officially beat a pre-prime Gene in 1922, and the case has been made that Harry should be 3-2 against Tunney overall. (Grantland Rice and Regis Welsh both thought Greb won the second bout, and some newspapermen had Harry taking nine of ten rounds from their fourth clash in Cleveland in 1924, just after Gene had disposed of Carpentier. There seems to be no dispute that Tunney was clearly better in fights three and five.)

 

Duodenum: Thanks for the reply. You raise an interesting point about Tunney and Greb, and it is kind of unfortunate that we never got to see a peak vs peak clash.

 

Assuming they're allowed to juice? Many of them.

Hell, Fitzsimmons won the heavyweight title WHILE he was a middleweight, against a great fighter in Corbett. Won with an epic bodyshot KO.

Jones ate steroids for breakfast lunch and dinner and then grabbed and groped his way to a small slice of the heavyweight title against John Ruiz.

Toney and Barkley were not real heavyweight champions.

 

jones tested positive once for andro vs hall, which at the time was legal in over-the-counter supplements, and that's all. saying jones groped his way to the title is ridiculous. there's actual footage of corbett and fitz and i'm not impressed at all. good accomplishment from fitz to win the "white" heavy title but it's hard to call corbett great after watching him fight.

 

Did you watch the Jones/Ruiz fight??

It's hard to call Corbett great after watching some grainy footage of him fighting? Sure. It's when you look at his record...

Jones beat Ruiz for a portion of the heavyweight title. He chose the weakest major titleholder, then bulked up to heavyweight and defeated him in a snoozefest.

Fitzsimmons took on the heavyweight champion of the word without gaining weight, and knocked him out with a bodyshot. Y'all musta forgot.