which fighters were one win away from being the goat?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by goat15, Mar 31, 2011.


  1. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    See, I don't agree with that. I like Langford and Greb both for the guys they beat.

    It's true that Robinson was a champion more often, six times I believe, but it's interesting to me that he did this likely without taking on the man I'd consider the best fighter of his generation, Charley Burley, who spent years trying to get a shot at Ray, before he was champion and after. Langford and Greb both have better win ledgers, Armstrong had a greater achievement. You can rank Robinson above all three but it's not a given, at all.

    A wonderful style (I agree with you) shouldn't be a factor IMO. Not at this sort of level. Each to his own in terms of criteria, but that would never be me.

    I think Robinson is the most perfect boxer i've seen on film; I just don't think that makes him the de facto #1. Armstrong looks much uglier but is absolutely in Robinson's neighbourhood. In fact, I have no problem with him being ranked over Robinson, at all.

    As for beauty, well, as i'm sure you'll acknowledge that's in the eye of the beholder. It could just as easily and validly be a Tyson combination or Zarate's easy-punching style, how about a Pep concerto or some Midget Wolgast jazz? Why are these not more beautiful?

    My own personal pick would be Louis's punching, and who is to say i'm wrong? But it's certainly no reason to make him #1 at HW any more than Robinson looking beautiful to you is a reason for me to make him #1 all time.

    But if that is your criteria, all power to you.
     
  2. Addie

    Addie Myung Woo Yuh! Full Member

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    I sense a touch of resentment whenever you talk about The Greatest? What's the problem, S?
     
  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    It's easy to dislike Ali I think. He seems a real shitheel to me. When you consider he was also a genuine hero, that's a real nettle to grasp for the guys that feel this way. You're either a Frazier man or an Ali man...
     
  4. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Too little black and white footage, what else?:D
     
  5. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Personally, I don't see why people make all this fuss about it. No nearly as confounding as the hatred for Leonard, though. Freud couldn't crack that one.:smoke
     
  6. Addie

    Addie Myung Woo Yuh! Full Member

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    Indeed. I'm a fan, incidentally. I think his achievements, victories, and qualities inside the ring speak louder than anything else.
     
  7. Swarmer

    Swarmer Patrick Full Member

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    Yes, there is absolutely nothing Max Schmeling could do against Cassius Clay. Nothing. Schmeling was a damn good counterpuncher with deceptively heavy and fast hands. He had a pretty awkward but effective style himself and could block/parry and feint pretty well, both of which are things i think are pretty key to beating Ali, which is why I think out of all Louis opponents' Schmeling, Walcott, Charles, and Sharkey(if he wasnt in choke mode total) would give him some good fits.
     
  8. goat15

    goat15 Active Member Full Member

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    all true. i would say that i think greb has the better case. he had that year when he was untouchable. i put a lot of weight on that kind of dominance. i'm not sure if langford ever won fifteen or twenty fights in a row. did he even come close to doing this? his competition was great, but was it that great?

    it certainly is in the eye of the beholder. it just so happens that the eye of the majority is pleased by the way robinson fought. i don't want to start breaking down beauty, though. and as i said, i wouldn't put much weight on this for any other choice than the number one spot. again, i understand ranking fighters more consistently, as you do it. i also wouldn't do it if i (a) felt robinson's achievements were lacking, or (b) if someone else's achievements were far greater. you seem to feel both of these things to at least some extent (a) burley and (b) langford.

    that's fair enough.
     
  9. Addie

    Addie Myung Woo Yuh! Full Member

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    You see Schmeling having success trying to counterpunch Ali?

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yilXvhph3Y[/ame]
     
  10. Swarmer

    Swarmer Patrick Full Member

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    Yes, there is absolutely nothing Max Schmeling could do against Cassius Clay. Nothing. Schmeling was a damn good counterpuncher with deceptively heavy and fast hands. He had a pretty awkward but effective style himself and could block/parry and feint pretty well, both of which are things i think are pretty key to beating Ali, which is why I think out of all Louis opponents' Schmeling, Walcott, Charles, and Sharkey(if he wasnt in choke mode total) would give him some good fits.

    The fanbase. The perceptions of him as impossible to beat when he showed plenty of vulnerability or as a shoe in for the greatest heavy ever. I don't necessarily mind his personality, actually. He's a funny guy, i mean he might have been a rude dick to the majority of his opponents but that's whatever, i guess. the biggest thing i don't like about him is his style actually. I think he's got pretty awful inside game, doesn't body punch well, or punch well in general(i think that if his technique was better he'd have actually been a pretty explosive hitter) and his tendency to spoil, flurry ineffectively, and clown in the ring.
     
  11. goat15

    goat15 Active Member Full Member

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    walcott beats sixties ali, but loses to seventies ali.
     
  12. Addie

    Addie Myung Woo Yuh! Full Member

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    If a non-fan was to read this paragraph about Ali and then your description of Schmeling, they'd think it was the German who was a three-time Heavyweight champion of the world. :yep
     
  13. Swarmer

    Swarmer Patrick Full Member

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    What's your reasoning here? I figure that in a battle of outboxing more intact speed and movement in general would be tops.
     
  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Sam went more than 20 fights unbeaten at a very high level at heavyweight having boxed as a lightweight as a teenager. His level of competition is insane. He has Joe Gans was a teenager (Gans was champion and in his prime) and twenty years later he knocked out ATG middle Tiger Flowers in 2 whilst mostly blind.

    In between he beat many of the best fighters of his era, almost always giving up serious size at heavy.
     
  15. goat15

    goat15 Active Member Full Member

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    agree with all of this. much prefer watching him as an amateur. joy to watch under those conditions.