Cleveland Williams vs Ingemar Johansson

Too right. Williams better in all departments. Ingo was a one trick pony.

 

Ingo by KO.

As Janitor alluded, a lot revisionist speculation going on here. Outside of KO'ing Terrell once, Williams has no other contender level pelts to his KO resume... unless you include the oft-beaten Bethea which I will not.

 

This could go either way, but in truth, Ingo does not have an in depth resume of kos over quality opposition either. Machen he caught cold, and Floyd was never too durable.
N B .Terrell had a good set of whiskers,and I think its entirely possible Williams could spark Floyd too.

 

Well, perhaps Williams should have tried to catch someone cold because there were a lot of guys who were **** he that couldn't get out of there. Keene Simmons? Marciano, Parisi and some guy named Mike Fisher took him out. Much later on, Williams couldn't. Blown up lightheavy Frank Daniels went the distance tho others (who were light heavies) blew him out. Tommy Fields, same. And we all know about Satterfield, another light heavy.

Maybe he had great power but he really didn't have great abilities to apply it.

 

Interestingly Williams wasn't considered a championship contender until AFTER he'd been blown away twice by Sonny Liston.
He was a fringe act in the 50s whilst Patterson was champion. Not a rated contender.

 

Probably won't last 2 rounds either way, going with Ingo by KO.

 

machen spent 10 mins getting undressed in the ring, he wore long trousers, track suit and a coat with a hood up waiting during the introductions. ingo wore just a robe.

 

If we all know about Satterfield. then we know that 20 year old Willams was a last minute sub, don't we?
Keene Simmons had a shot at stopping Marciano ,according to the referee,he thought about stopping it because of Rocky's cut eye.
I said the fight could go either way ,but I pick Williams ,faster ,at least comparable power, stronger, and as durable.
Daniels also went the distance with Satterfield in one of their 2 fights.
The distance with Bob Baker and Archie Moore all punchers.
As usual, you are very selective with which facts you use.

 

Everyone is selective regarding the facts... that's how one frames an argument.

Williams' power seems to me to be overrated. He has one defining power performance and then a bunch of anecdotal stuffing. Given the evidence of his record, what I have seen on film and the anecdotal evidence (taken with appropriate salt), he seems to be one of those guys with great sparring power that never translated to the championship level.

 

I agree with unforgiven and seamus. Yes williams could bang at a level but he was not a rated contender untill after the 1950s. It is ENTIRELY revisionstic to alude to any notion that the big cat was anything other than a local atraction on the west coast (later texas) who tended to lose when ever he stepped up in class. Even with careful matchmaking big cat had been found out a few times before finaly cracking the ratings after 10 years as a pro.

By comparison ingo made serious progress from the start of his career at a competative level.ingo was facing a 27 year old giant who outweigand him by almost 30lb and had a 30-7 record when he was only 5-0, he won by KO. Kurt schidgl was rated #4 in europe when ingo took him on in only his 8th fight. ingo won by KO again. At 12-0 Ingo fought a former european champion who had 43 fights in front of 17,000 fans,ingo won in one round. Nat fleicher whatched Ingo knock out another german giant guenter Nurnburg and predicted that he could be a world champion. after just 14 fights ingo took on the world rated european champion who was 43-3 and won by Ko again. All this before fighting and knocking out #1 eddie machen who drew with williams many years later...

 

Caught cold ,means before he was really into the fight .Nothing to do with the temperature,or how many clothes he wore coming into the ring.
eg Maxim v Sheppard,its entirely possible that in a rematch Machen would have out pointed Ingo,imo.

 

While Patterson was defending against the likes of Rademacher ,Harris,London,NcNeeley? Any of those you'd make favourite over Williams?

 

Hard to say, really.
Whoever lands flush and hard first SHOULD win it. Each had a punch that would likely land very easily. I think I would back williams though, as Williams was faster, more explosive, hit harder, bigger and taller, and he had better combos.

 

How is the period when Williams became a rated contender relevant to this thread?
He was in the top 10 from 62, 63. 64. to 65.
Shiegl was European level, and mid level at that, he had been kod in 3 by Neuhaus 4 months previously. TenHoff and Nurnburg were at the end of the trail. Ingo feasted on euro level non punchers.
The only hitter he faced before Floyd was Cooper.He never faced a hitter like Williams.Floyd and Ingo had each other up and down like yo yo's, Brian London a non hitter floored , and had Ingo all but out. His resume is no better than Williams imo.

 

It's entirely possible that Michael Spinks could have outpointed Tyson in a hypothetical rematch.
Not sure it's ever a point worth raising though.

When the first bell rings, it's on. No baby excuses, "I wasn't ready", "gimme a round or two to get settled, bud"