Cleveland Williams vs Ingemar Johansson

Patterson defended against some bums, but that doesn't mean Williams was a top contender either.
I wouldn't make any of those four fighters the favourite over Williams but I wouldn't be shocked if he lost to one or two of them.

 

My point was that By the 14 fight stage Ingo had been matched hard and was knocking on the door of world class having cleaned out europes best men. The top british, Italian and germans.Dissmiss them all you want as "euro level" but a lot of them were rated and above the fighters williams lost to in the 1950's after many more fights.

it took wiliams, who had so many set backs, ten years of soft match making to equal what ingo did in 14 fights only to end up drawing with a guy ingo KO'd in one round years earlier when he was beter.

 

How should I counter this flawed argument ? Should I say Williams kod Terrell who beat Machen to assume the WBA Title?
All these Euro fighters who were rated ? Would they include Neuhaus who had not been rated for 4 years when he fought Johannson in 58?
Would they include Ten Hoff, who was never rated and was having his last fight ?
Would they include Nurnburg who was never rated?
Would they include Cooper who was not rated in 57 when he fought Ingo and had lost his last 2 fights by stoppage?
How about Dick Richardson who was very briefly no 9 in 1960 2 years before he fought Ingo.
In fact show me who, apart from Machen who Ingo fought who was world rated at the time
Matched hard are you serious?
Just some of the contenders who WERE rated that Ingo somehow missed.

Hunter
Holman
Summerlin
Bethea
Valdes
Folley
Liston
Charles
McMurtry
Miteff
Baker
Satterfield
Pastrano
Jackson
Harris

Johannson has one of the weakest resumes of ANY heavyweight champion.

FACT

 

MY point was Ingo's rep rests on one win over a chinny Patterson ,and one win over Machen.

 

That's fair.

But Williams' rep rests on landing some hard punches on Liston before getting brutalized in 3 and 2 rounds. A draw with Machen and a win over a pre-ranked Terrell ?

 

To paraphrase Jimmy Cannon ,"it says here that Liston also brutalises Ingo" probably quicker, if Ingo shits his trunks like he did against Sanders.:good
No Terrell was not rated when Williams bombed him out ,but 8 months later he was no 3 and, that's where he was ,when he scraped a split decision from Williams in 63.
Oh, he was also no 3 in 64, no 1 in 65, no 1 in 66 ,and no 10 ,in 67. A solid regular in the top ten , for 5 years,and a WBA champ.Williams koing Terrell and losing a split dec to him is pretty good imo ,considering Terrell has wins over .
Jones
Foster
Zech
Lincoln
Garcia
Machen
Folley
Chuvalo
Thats a damned sight better resume than Ingo can show imo.

 

You could always just stick with the truth : johansson Knocked out machen before he drew with williams. "willliams Kayoing terrell who beat machen to asume the wba title" isnt even as good as "johanson knocked out patterson who outpointed machen".

I have not even brought up 8-3 sylvester jones who handed williams his ass on his coming out party for his newyork debut on the marciano v lastarza card at the polo grounds. williams was boasting a manufactured 25-0 but was decked twice in his first competative fight.

Bob satterfeild was the first known fighter williams fought but that was in his 31st fight, and we know what happened there, dispite all the advantages. wiliams retired for 2 years to get over it.

In his comeback williams was nursed through 12 further low risk fights to build his confidence up before fighting the next decent fighter, who knocked him out.

Even when williams beat a young unranked terrell who was 24-3 to his 51-4 he lost the return within 12 months....and that was his highlight?

 

This is the kind of match making typical of cleveland wiliams career as late as 1961. James wiley already knocked out 12 previous occasions, 20lb lighter with a record of 7 wins from 27 fights against the house fighter: a 50-4 fringe contender called big cat...


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfPYF3Tom8k[/ame]

 

I agree

 

Johansson's wins over Machen and Patterson are better than Williams' record against Machen and Terrell, that's the point.
Arguing that TERRELL has a better resume than Johansson is an unnecessary tangent. I'm not sold on Terrell myself, I disagree with your "damn sight better resume" prognosis, but it's not an avenue worth exploring.

I suspect you're joking but I do hope you see no relevance in Johansson's disappointing showing in an amateur fight at the 1952 Olympics. It's such an absurd thing to bring up in seriousness it's desperate. But I don't think you were being serious.

:good

 

Oh get real, 8 months later Terrell was no 3, the next year he was no 3 again and no 1 for the following 2 years.
Williams was a 20 year old last minute sub in the Satterfield fight.

Stick with the truth?
You wouldn't know the truth if it bit you on the arse.

 

Williams is a cause celebre among the Classicists because of his near modern measurables which, given the competitiveness those midgets of yesteryear found against him, elicit comparison between his sad era of the heavyweights and that of the modern dynamos. Sad and desperate argumentation indeed.

 

How about giving back the tax dollars that funded the 4 or 5 years of public schooling you received.