Cleveland Williams vs Ingemar Johansson

It's not "irrelevant," actually. You had said Ingo would be an easy target for Liston and would be KO'd "the moment" Liston lands on him. BUT Liston's fights with Whitehurst show that a much lesser, no bigger, and no tougher fighter than Ingo can last the distance with Liston and give him a few spots of trouble with some clever movement and sneak pot shots. And no matter how you look at it, Whitehurst certainly was not KO'd "the moment" Liston landed on him.

 

Heres a nice article. Interesting choice of words by manager Bobby Gleason

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...781,6298894&dq=nino+valdes+sonny+liston&hl=en

 

Picking a fighter who lost 19 out of 20 rounds against Sonny Liston and using that to criticize liston is desperation at its finest. It's laughable really. You simply have nothing to work with. Johansson is a huge underdog against Liston and you know it. If we compare common opposition, Liston blows Johansson out of the water. If we match them up physically, Liston blows johansson out of the water. If we compare there resumes, liston blows johansson out of the water. If we compare there punching abilities with two fists, liston blows johansson out of the water. If we compare durability, liston blows johansson out of the water. if we compare defense and boxing skills, liston blows johansson out of the water. If we compare left jabs, liston blows johansson out of the water.

Johansson is overmatched and would be physically dominated by liston. Liston is too strong and powerful for Johansson.

 

Who criticized Liston? The issue here is whether or not Johansson would do better against Liston than Williams did, which is a topic you now seem intent on diverting.

Says the person who had to reach into the AMATEURS in order to make his point. :nono

 

Williams was a fine fringe contender level fighter. Johannson was a decent champion level fighter. That´s the difference and their careers show that. Yeah, Williams has the speed, power and technique to land on Johannson and with a bit of luck he even may take him out. That´s less likely than the other way around though. Out of ten times this happens perhaps 2 times. Get real guys.

And yeah, Liston knocks Johannson out. But not early and not after eating some punches and having some problems of his own.

 

Johansson fought and knocked out european giants with winning records at least as good as some fringe americans. This debate is about wiliams beating Ingo Not LISTON, a guy who brutaly KOd williams. It is another debate.

 

In a much shorter career ingo beat world elite punchers patterson, machen and cooper.

His european opposition is overlooked here. Dick richardson knocked out mildenburger and brian London knocked out roger richser quicker than LISTON so they were not powder puff punchers either.

 

What choklab stated was correct, Terrell was young and unranked when Williams beat him.
Terrell then went on to improve, hitting his stride over the next 2 or 3 years.
In my opinion he was not great shakes anyway, a tall spoiler rather than a devastating heavyweight, but that's besides the point.

Williams was supposed to beat Terrell again, but lost the second go. Evidence that the later Terrell was an improvement ? I'd say so.

Obviously fighters DO mature and grow in confidence and ability over relatively short periods, often on the back of stoppage defeats against more experienced fighters. It's ridiculous that you might even try to minimise that likelihood. It's telling that NO ONE at the time was putting much stock in a win over unranked Ernie Terrell.
And since Terrell's subsequent climb up the ladder wasn't exactly world-shattering stuff it's hard to argue that he's a spectacularly good win for Williams at the point they met.

What Ingemar Johansson did in his absolute peak was destroy the unbeaten number 1 contender in 1 round, then destroy the world's champion in 3 rounds. It's quality stuff above what Williams (or Terrell, IMO) did, and that needs to be acknowledged.

 

Speaking of Dick Richardson, he fought Cleveland Williams in England once, and lost by DQ when he started butting. Some reports have said Williams didn't look particularly impressive, he certainly didn't impress the Brit reporters as an old Nino Valdes did when he came over to fight. Williams as a fighter just simply didn't match up to his own physical appearance.

Richardson protested the DQ, and was unafraid of Williams, and the crowd wanted it, so a rematch was arranged.
Williams famously pulled out of the fight at the last minute, "hearing message from God" or some other nonsense. He was insane, he was scared, or both.
(Obviously, if Johansson had pulled that stunt some people here would be telling us he was "shitting his pants" but that's another story.)

 

Williams would take Johanssens head off, better puncher, faster, more skilled.

 

If all that is true why don't his ACTUAL RESULTS reflect it ?

lol:

 

Because 1. they didn't fight 2. Patterson/Ingo amongst others ducked him 3. Styles/situations make fights, ie Machen was only a 3year pro when he faced Ingo

 

Ingo didn't "duck" Williams. Where did you get that from ?

What makes Williams "more skilled" than Ingo ?
Is it because he's got
1. Fast hands
2. Brown skin
3. Muscular definition/aesthetically superior physique

?

 

Modern nutrition. :thumbsup