Could Muhammad Ali have made the Manilla fighy easier for himself ?

It doesn't make sense to me either, but still.
224 1/2 I think he was. That's generally a weight where he was under-trained or over-fed, and he had some lacklustre performances at that kind of weight. And in Manila he LOOKED just as soft, a little flabby, as you would expect at 225. I'd say those 5 extra pounds were just fat.
YET he proved he was fit by going 14 of the fiercest rounds in heavyweight history.

"Bulking up" with fat is the same as being too heavy, really.

 

Yes, but in that case he would have been even fitter without those extra pounds of fat. There's just no way around that. If you're carrying extra weight that you could have trained off, you're not at your fittest.

So either he bulked up with muscle or he didn't train as hard as he should have. 'Cause he could come down to 220 at this time without draining himself.

 

Yes, I think he was carrying excess fat and could have been fitter.
But he displayed such a high standard of fitness it's not an observation I can make into a criticism.

If he had been 218 pounds maybe he would have been fresher at the end and have recovered quicker.
Also, maybe he could have fought at an even harder pace, slightly - but that's just something I have difficulty imagining.



:good

 

I agree that if he wasn't in absolute top shape (which there is reason to believe he wasn't) it's astonishing that he managed to keep that pace in those conditions. A testament to his incredible will power.

 

One thing about the trilogy i never got was how Muhammad Ali kept taunting Frazier, annoying him and trying to get into his head. Smoking Joe was obviously fuelled by Alis antagonism.

 

Howard Cosell interviewed him that morning for his short lived "Saturday Night Live" variety show on ABC, and noted that Ali had a bit of a paunch, but Muhammad casually dismissed it. No, Ali was not as well trained as he should have been, but he was as battle ready as he ever was in his second career after being extended by Wepner, Lyle, and with Bugner in the outdoor Kuala Lumpur daytime blast furnace.

Take a look at Frazier-Ellis II. Jimmy was now 35 years old, yet he lasted into the ninth round. Joe was masterful in the rematch with what turned out to be a shot JQ, but he still didn't look the same in his post title outings since Jamaica. Smoke worked like hell in training, yet still came in at the second highest weight of his career for Manila. The press was making an issue of Joe's relative inactivity compared to Ali's. Since their MSG 12 rounder, Muhammad had won four title bouts against four very different opponents, while Frazier had halted two former and rapidly aging stoppage victims again. That Ali wouldn't expect the furious level of resistance he got in Manila is understandable.

Sure, Ali could have made things easier on himself by somehow getting back to the 212 condition he met for Frazier II and Norton II, but he may not have managed the only stoppage win in his series with Smoke had he done that.

Padilla was also a source of assistance to Frazier by refusing to allow Ali's neck yanking. He forced Muhammad to punch his way to the win, and Ali generated a punch rate he might not have been able to sustain in his first career.

 

I think he would have drained himself training down to that weight at nearly 34. Actually, I'm a bit unsure of the wisdom of doing so even two years earlier. Something like 217-220 would probably have been his best weight in Manilla. He would be trim but strong at that kind of weight. I think it would be the wrong decision to try and dance, though.

 

Very good post. :good

Yes Ali was a little heavier than desirable, but he did fight with a tremendous workrate for 14 rounds of hellacious war in suffocating heat while absorbing debilitating bombs to his body, kidney & hips from Frazier; so i don't think is fitness was at fault.

In fairness, Frazier should've came in lighter too, he was certainly carrying some excess flab, but he fought hard & walked through brutal sustained punishment in scorching heat, & wasn't totally exhausted until round 14.

This ultra hi-res photo illustrates the conditioning of both warriors well:

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I remember being at the closed circuit show watching this as a teenager with my dad and Uncle. And I remember Dad telling my Uncle, `I think he`s winning,but he`s making a mistake slugging with Frazier`. I thought he could have boxed a little more, maybe with the extra weight he couldn`t stay up on his toes as much. Or maybe it was Frazier just `Smokin` and making Ali fight his fight...

 

I think the plan was to hurt Joe early, just like in FOTC. Even though the plan had backfired in 1971, Ali's camp figured Joe had deterioated enough that it would work this time.

On the other hand Ali couldn't dance for 15, so at some point he would have to slug it out in either case. But it seems maybe he didn't take Joe quite seriously enough, though.

 

This was not a case of Joe making Ali fight this way. Ali was the one taking the fight to Joe early, backing him up, landing, and seeming to hurt him. It was in round 5(I think) that Joe got his first real dig of the fight, and by then, Ali's mouth was open and he was retreating to the ropes, which he did when he was tired.

Frazier's toughness and Ali's arrogance made that fight difficult.

 

In a funny way, I think it was actually Joe who got into Ali's head rather than the other way around. In both FOTC and Manilla it seems a bit like Ali wanted to prove a point. In no other fights did he even come close to going for the KO from the onset like he did in those fights.

There was some wisdom in it considering Joe was a slow starter, but I also wonder if he didn't set out to prove something. And on the other hand, he showed this strange arrogance before those fights of not seemingly training 100% and that's odd for Ali. He could come in so-so shape for lesser opponents, but in the big fights he was always in absolute top shape - with these two being possible exceptions. It's odd, but he did almost seem to have a chip on the shoulder as well as certain disdain when it came to Joe.

 

My father told me there was tons of rivalry even behind the words and the media stuff because of how different they were. Also, both were jealous of the other, I think.

I don't think Ali could forgive Joe for winning the title he considered his when he was stripped. And Joe hated Ali for very well documented reasons. I think it was important to Ali to be the better of those two, because in some small way, it proved that the 3 years he spent off were not needed: That he was the true champion, and had been since he beat Liston.

Just my take. He viewed Joe as beneath him, and often fought that way.