How much credit to you give Maxim for his win over Robinson?

Not every time, but in this instance luck played it's part, of that I have no doubt.

I doubt there was any master plan on Maxim's part. He may have conserved energy due to the conditions which was wise, but the plain and simple truth is that he was outclassed on the night, and got a break when Robinson could not continue, but not due to anything Maxim did.

If this had been a Tour de France race that would be different, a test of pure endurance where late surges are the norm, but let's be honest...what was Maxim going to do to beat Robinson? He was way behind on the cards and there were only two round left.

 

Yes, but like I said, it's not an uncommon way to win a fight.
Often fights are won in the late rounds by the fighter who is well behind but has better stamina/pacing.

Whether Maxim "intended" or had a "master plan" is completely irrelevant. Maybe he fought the only way he knew how. Maybe he fought the only fight he could fight.
Maybe Robinson did the same thing. I mean, if Robinson did have a plan it was a bad plan.

Maxim DID beat Robinson.
Yes, there were "only two rounds left" ..... two rounds that Robinson wasn't in any state to see.
It was a 15 round fight, Robinson knew that.
It was hot, as Robinson knew too.

Maxim fought the better fight.
There should be no controversy about that.

 

That's a fair post...I don't disagree strongly with any of that. I've never disputed that Maxim won fair and square, or that it remains a legitimate victory.
It would have made me happier though had Maxim's punches contibuted greatly to Robinson's condition; perhaps if he had started to batter Robinson along the ropes or really started to maul him, but none of that transpired.

Sorry, no matter which way I slice it, to me there was an element of luck about the victory.

 

I think its fairly uncommon for those temperatures while a fight is in progress, and for a referee to be replaced because of the heat,and he was only watching it.
Peter Wilson ,the English scribe wrote that his clothes weree soaked through ,and that a book of matches in his pocket were rendered completely useless, sodden through.
"The pants of some of the men were soaking ,as if they had wet on themselves ".Carl Jefferson.

" People don't know how near to dying Dad was ,his body wwas covered with blisters.He could not retain anything in his stomach for two days,and he was delirious." Ray Robinson Jnr.

I'm well aware the temperature was the same for both men ,but Ray did all the forcing and covered three times the ring that Maxim did.
Clever tactics on Maxim's part? Sure, but if Ray had not wilted, how clever would Joey have looked then? Robinson was skating it.

 

But he didn't run out of gas, he suffered heat exposure. That's a medical condition, not a lack of stamina - you could be a marathon runner and suffer it. It's not like a normal fight where it was mere exhaustion. I think it's safe to say that if even the REF gets TKOd by the heat, then conditions were unusual, and it's a pretty big contributor to the result.

Somehow I doubt Maxim's strategy was to win by encouraging Robinson to expend so much effort that heat exposure delivered a TKO in the championship rounds. So, a large element of luck was involved, and not much that Maxim did specifically caused the loss. That reduces the credit to the fighter - he still won, and no one is trying to say he didn't come off better that day, but he didn't do it because he was the better fighter, or landed the decisive blow. So IMO it's a win, but not as much credit as a normal fight win.

 

Come on - how many other fights have been won because the opponent collapsed late from heat? It's an extremely rare way for a fight to end.

 

It's impossible to tell exactly how much a factor any of Maxim's punches were. The ones he landed certainly didn't help Robinson.

But it can't be denied that Maxim's size, strength, chin, conditioning, stamina and style won him the fight.

Robinson landed more punches ... AND he's the bigger puncher ..... and he lost !

 

He ran out of gas.
To say otherwise is to be in denial.
You think Ray Robinson would have collapsed in that heat if he hadn't been fighting a big strong guy like Maxim ?
You think Ray Robinson would have collapsed in that heat had he been walking in the park ?

"Heat exposure" is a medical description.
Just like "acute exhaustion" - which I'm sure most doctors would have agreed he was suffering too

Every time someone runs out of gas we can find a medical description for it.

Ok, you want to say, "but the conditions were unusual" .... Yeah, and so what ? Maxim outlasted him in the conditions that were.
"The referee collapsed" .... Yeah, the ref was out of shape. Robinson was in better shape than the ref, but not in good enough shape to go 15 with Maxim.

Robinson overheated because :
1. It was a hot night. Of course he wouldn't have overheated in arctic conditions.
And
2. He was fighting 15 rounder with Joey Maxim.
He was dancing around all night, causing himself to become overheated. His body couldn't handled it, ie. he couldn't do it for 15 rounds against Maxim in the heat.

Maxim not only handled the heat, he was the one taking the punches too. So why all the excuses for Ray ?

Why do people feel the need to make these ***** excuses for the greatest fighter ever ?

 

I wouldn't even say that Maxim was necessarily clever.
But your paragraph explains clearly how he was CLEVERER than Robinson. He didn't run around making the heat even hotter.
People seem to be admitting that Robinson's strategy turned out to be a SUICIDAL strategy in that heat, but at the same time have trouble admitting that Maxim fought the better fight and was the better man on the night.
Robinson wasn't tough enough to fight the way he tried to fight. And it he moved less he probably would have been bullied out of the fight in quicker time.

 

You've got to give Maxim some credit...he had to withstand the heat too...

 

I give him full credit. He was stronger, more prepared and paced himself better. There are a lot of ways to win a fight.

 

This is the only area where we differ.
Since Maxim won just 3 of the 1st 12 rds. I dont see how he fought the better fight?
Did he know Ray would collapse?

 

mcvey, you've not lost it

 

He should get the same amount of credit Chris Byrd gets for TKOing Vitali.

 

He had talked to the media about showing up more aggressive than usual but it was the same old Maxim in there, except he was unusually outclassed in a battle of left hands. If Maxim had anything it was his left jab. This fight I doubt was the performance he wanted to be remembered by as he won not with his skills but his size and ability to take punishment (and the heat). Robinson made him look pretty bad in there for as long as his legs lasted. He was outdone in every aspect of boxing, but in boxing you must take the surrounding conditions into account and Robinson did not, which is why he lost the fight. It's said that he even refused to drink water before the bout because he felt it unnecessary. As a result he was dehydrated and reduced to weighing below the welterweight limit which he found difficult to make by 1950. Maxim later said that he was surprised by Robinson's power, and that along with Sugar Ray's speed put him into a shell for most of the fight.