How much credit to you give Maxim for his win over Robinson?

The heat had a part to play, no doubt, but maxim was in better shape.

Neither come out of this the loser.

As for credit, ofcourse he outlasted the great and was able to continue when the great was not.

 

Maxim would have beaten Jake the way he beat Bob Murphy, left jab, left jab, left jab etc.

 

All night long.:good

 

It's absolutely irrelevant whether he KNEW Robinson would collapse or not.

I'll say this : As a champion I think it's highly likely that Maxim was coming out for every round TRYING TO WIN. He wasn't there to lose. His intention was to WIN.

Of course he fought the better fight.
Robinson danced around in the heat, piled up some points and then collapsed. That's not what I call fighting a good fight.
Maxim was ready to fight, 15 rounds to defend his championship, and Robinson was not even fit to talk, let alone walk after 13 rounds.
So, who fought better ?
It's the guy who's standing at the end.

No ifs, no buts.
It's one of the most basic principles of competitive boxing.
You have to be able to go the distance.

 

Good post. Did you see my thread on this very subject?

 

Maxim beat Murphy more so by handling him in the clinches and countering with uppercuts and hooks. It's one of his better performances in my opinion, really showcasing his skills. A prime LaMotta would have been a tougher task than Bob Murphy though, but by the 1950's Maxim would have been a big favorite.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHifSwBH5RA[/ame]

 

I think it got mixed up on the wrong thread here, actually.

By the way, one thing i am interested in getting some thoughts on in relatino to this fight. There is no doubt that Ray was faster, he also seemed to hit harder and have more power. In fact, even in the clinches, he wasnt exactly getting muscled around. yet despite all these advantages, Maxim actually won the fight.

I actually think that Joey Maxim gave Sugar Ray a bit of a boxing lesson. He had better defensive technique and fought in a more conventional and traditional boxing stance and style. Ray tried to dance and be flashy, with a low guard relying on better reflexes and speed. Doesnt this suggest that despite the common notion that Ray Handed out a boxing lesson, Maxim was in fact the one that did the learning not Joey. In fact, what other possible explanation is there when a fighter who is athletically inferior in nearly every category actually grits his teeth and gets the win?

 

This is a very interesting notion. I've only seen the last two rds or some such of this fight, but will have to watch it in full and get back to you.

 

Boilermaker is just being controversial as usual. Maxim was a big light heavyweight with great defensive skills, and he was being outdone in every aspect by Robinson until the latter fell over to diagnosed heat exhaustion. He hardly caused Robinson to be drained of nearly every ounce of water in his body with his laid back style, the surrounding conditions did. Maxim did a better job boxing the quick Patterson, atleast he was landing his jab every now and then, against Robinson it was completely taken away. If there was a performance Maxim wanted to be remembered by, it was not this, despite winning against arguably the greatest fighter who ever lived. Maxim lived off his skillset and not by taking it on the chin for 13 rounds only to see his opponents fall over from exhaustion.

 

Ok. Here's my take:

Robinson actually fights in a non-sustainable way in those conditions, and that is why he loses. In normal conditions he would have won, but that doesn't take away from the fact that loses because he fights in the wrong way. Let's break it down then:

Movement: Too much technically incorrect movement. He often leaps into range with punches and almost always get out of range by skipping back and crossing his feet. This is a very energy-sapping way to get out of danger (which probably a lot of us have experienced when sparring with bigger guys). Instead he should have tried to get angles with single side-steps, but I don't think he had that technique. Look how McCallum does it between 0.40-1.10 in the clip below. He gets out of Harding's sector of fire by constantly changing angles by single side-steps.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhMZGMZ0ruc&feature=related[/ame]


Compare this with the skipping steps Robinson takes to get out of Maxim's punching range:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItB-BudS64w[/ame]


Clinching: Robinson clinches way too much. This because he isn't comfortable on the inside. But look again how McCallum manages to avoid clinching much with the stronger Harding by stepping around him, and ducking and slipping behind a tight guard when Harding manages to get a punch off.

Punching: Technically, Robinson punching is the best part of his game. The punches are leveraged and accurate, and he rarely leaves himself off balance even though he takes some chances by leaping in now and then. BUT, he tries to take Maxim's head off with nearly every punch. All punches except the jab are power punches. This even though it soon becomes evident that Maxim can take his best. By that point he should have been more prudent with the power punches, but he doesn't adapt.

So in conclusion, Robinsons' movement and punching is too uneconomical and he clinches too much with the bigger man. Robinson still had enough left physically to get away with this under normal circumstances, but in this case these flaws are his downfall.

 

I think Maxim's durability, (and STRENGTH at light-heavy, at least) was always a major asset in his successes.
I haven't followed Boilermaker's argument so I'm not getting into that but Maxim was certainly a fighter for whom durability, chin and strength often played a large part in winning him fights.

I'm surprised by the amount of people who refuse to give Maxim his due credit for the win.

 

I disagree. Size was a factor at light heavyweight but he often fought bigger heavyweights. His chin was solid (but not unbreakable as he was down numerous times), however he was acknowledged to be the best defensive boxer of his time. This along with his "Maxim gun" left jab made him the fighter he was. Robinson took away the jab completely with his feinting, countering, parrying and movement. It's not ideal for a fighter who made his name out of a punch not to land it a single time against the opponent.

I do agree that "economics" decided this bout, but the conditions were not normal by any stretch, thus it's a win that rightfully has a question mark over it. Many bring up the memorable quote about Maxim having no air conditioner in his corner but he also made remarks that he was "way behind" and lucky to win in the press, disappointed at his performance though glad for the win.

 

To be totally fair, for me the main question mark is over Robinson's adaptability. Why didn't he try and adapt in the slightest?

I do agree that Ray would have won under normal conditions, though.

 

Ringside viewers remarked that Robinson already looked drained by the middle rounds, unresponsive to the pleadings of his corner and the crowd to conserve his energy. They were literally yelling at him to stop putting so much effort into everything he did. He was basically fighting out of instinct by the late rounds, throwing bombs to try and take Maxim out and once falling flat on his face. After the fight Joe Louis visited Robinson in the dressing room and told the press that he looked like a "dead man".

I believe it's just a simple case of dehydration during an abnormally hot day. It can happen when you fight two hundred times in a career.

 

Let's not forget that this is the same fighter who fought wars with Basilio, Fullmer and LaMotta even until the age of 40, yet it's Maxim's strength and bodypunching that does him in? I find it hard to believe. Sure it played a part but so did the circumstances, obviously. Therefore there are questions over the win, not that Maxim doesn't deserve credit.