Cleveland Williams vs Ingemar Johansson

I retired years ago ,and my comeback never got off the ground.

 

No you DON'T actually, according to your very next post:

If you're going to reject Johansson's opponents based on them being "out of their primes," then you have to do the same for Liston. You can't have it both ways.

How old was Cooper when Johansson beat him?

What does that have to do with the fact that he was already a noted puncher, as demonstrated by his 1st round stoppage of Brian London?

So being "washed up" means he was no longer a puncher? That's not what you've said about Nino Valdes.

 

Ingemar:
Wins over leading contenders - 1
Wins over reigning World Champions - 1
Wins over HOFers - 1
World Titles won - 1
vs. common opponents - KO 1 Machen
HOF induction - 2002

Williams:
Wins over leading contenders - 0
Wins over reigning World Champions - 0
Wins over HOFers - 0
World Titles won - 0
vs. common opponents - D 10 Machen
HOF induction - N/A

What makes you think Williams can handle a HOF world champion?

Just like Machen, Billy Daniels, and Satterfield.

Which is something Williams completely failed to do against every other elite fighter he fought.

 

:deal

 

Ingemar Johansson was very fortunate to run into patterson instead of liston, while williams got stuck with liston instead of patterson. That's all that proves

 

Since your big into this stuff let's compare Liston and Ingo shall we? Since you seemed to think ingo would give liston such a "tough" fight

Ingemar:
Wins over leading contenders - 1
Wins over reigning World Champions - 1
Wins over HOFers - 1
World Titles won - 1
Wins over Ring Magazine top 10: 1
vs. common opponents - KO 1 Machen, TKO 3, L KO 6, L KO 6 Patterson, 2-2 record
HOF induction - 2002

Liston:
Wins over leading contenders - 3
Wins over reigning World Champions - 1
Wins over HOFers - 2
Wins over Ring Magazine top 10: 9
World Titles won - 1
vs. common opponents - W10 Machen, KO 1 Patterson, KO 1 Patterson 3-0 record
HOF induction - 1991


If you pick Ingo over reasons of "proving himself more", perhaps you should see the same for Liston over Ingo.

 

:deal Solid facts there.

 

No it doesn't. That's purely your own INFERENCE and not a FACT. Besides which, "getting stuck with Liston" has no bearing on how either performed against MACHEN.

 

Big fan of Ingo but unlike against Cleveland Williams, Machen did not know what he was getting himself into against Johansson. The fight proves the potency of Johansson's right hand, but not whether he could have outboxed Machen. Williams did a fine job boxing Machen who was arguably the best technical heavyweight boxer of the era, able to go punch for punch with even Harold Johnson in that department. Johansson would have also gotten bulldozed by Liston I fear. The left jab which bothered Patterson would have been a mere nuisance to Liston, and Johansson wouldn't have been able to set up that right hand so well.

 

You could make arguments like this going both ways, though.

On the flipside is that Ingo beat a young and hungry Machen at the height of his career, whereas Williams could only get a draw against the older, more tentative version that was often just content to go the distance in fights, and floated in and out of a mental institution.

What does it matter whether or not Ingo could've "outboxed" Machen if he proved he was good enough to actually win the fight against him, something Williams had failed to prove.

Whatever Williams showed he "could" do against Machen, the fact remains it still wasn't sufficient for him to overcome that level of opponent. Ingo proved he could do only overcome that level of opponent (and quite decisively), but could go a step further by unseating the reigning World Champion.

 

It was after the Williams fight that Machen landed in a mental hospital for trying to kill himself. He was on a great run until then though, the Harold Johnson and Doug Jones fights are some of the best I've seen of Machen.

I'm saying it could have gone differently had Johansson not caught Machen so early. Williams couldn't outpoint Machen, but it's impressive enough that he hung in there in the boxing department since Machen was one of the better boxers at the time, again showing that Williams's skills couldn't be taken lightly even when he couldn't punch you out. Johansson made a career out of a killer right hand, but he didn't necessarily prove what he could do in a pro-longed fight against a top class opponent. You can't just say that Johansson would automatically beat Williams because he beat Machen.

 

johansson was no slouch in boxing stakes either. By all acounts he had an easy time against the skillful joe erskine who on pure boxing ability outboxed a peak (rated at heavyweight) willie pastrano months later. according to ingo's autobiograhy he actualy outboxed erskine for 13 rounds then knocked him out.

 

I would say this is the best I've seen of Machen:
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I don't see how losing to Johnson could be considered part of a "great run." I'd say that fight was typical of his post-Johansson's losses, in which he showed a definite lack of fire and determination and allowed an opponent to outwork him to a decision.

I don't pick Johannson just based on that, either. But their overall careers do show that Johansson was the better class of fighter, which at least needs to be taken into consideration.

From a stylistic standpoint, Williams could be awfully lax with his defense, while Ingo showed he was adept at drawing world class fighters (even fairly skilled ones) into big right hand. And Ingo has shown his style and his punch can be effective against guys as big as Williams, even if they weren't necessarily as good.

 

Ingos wins over rated opponents should read 9.

ten hoff rated 1950-1951
erskine 32-1 rated 1958-59
franco cavicchi 43-3 rated 1955-56
henry cooper rated from 1958-1971
heinz neuhaus 1952-56 (off and on)
eddie machen#1
patterson #1
dick richardson rated 1960
brian london rated from 1958-65 (off and on)

9 rated opponents from a total of 28 fights is a prety good ratio!

 

Machen pounding out Valdes is impressive but it's hard to determine whether Machen was at his best in a 2 minute poor quality highlight. Before fighting Johansson, Machen had been in a dull draw with Folley, along with numerous other decisions in his previous fights, so the argument of him somehow lacking fire and going for decisions only after Johansson doesn't really count.

Machen lost to Johnson in what was largely a battle of technique by the margin of a drawn round on the referee's card. I think a draw would have been a better decision. This was against Harold Johnson who was one of the best textbook boxers to have ever lived. Machen was in there all the way because of his technical skills, not just size which he did not impose.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gB8ZABZ_Cs[/ame]

I can agree with this, although a valid argument can be made that Williams didn't have the same opportunities as Johansson. A Patterson fight could have gone Williams's way. On the other hand Johansson probably wouldn't have done any better than Williams against Liston.