How much credit to you give Maxim for his win over Robinson?

But he fought in an unsustainable fashion from the opening bell and never made any adaptions. I see this as a failure.

 

It was obviously a failure. He lost. Thankfully we have a ton of other footage on Robinson to know that he could adapt under difficult situations, and fight conservatively if the situation demanded it.

 

That's true.

 

I think that robinson got caught up in the hype and thought this would go down as his defining fight so wanted to win in style.

There are no ifs and buts about it, no matter how comfortably ahead he was, it's obvious his game plan wasn't a sustainable one.

Haye looked great against thompson for the first 4 rounds, but couldn't sustain it. Not the best of comparisons but basically it was poor conditioning on robinsons part and poor strategy over the full distance.

One thing i'm not sure of, was the heat a surprise or was it there throughout the training camp as well?

 

I don't disagree with the assets you outline, but I don't quite understand what you disagree about.
I said Maxim's durability was always a strength of his, an asset. The fact that he was put down and got up "numerous times" only confirms it. Durability is about going the distance, even against guys who have serious power. Maxim did so often. He was always going to last 15 with Ray Robinson, IMO.
I also said his physical strength was a factor a light-heavy. He wasn't a puncher, but he was strong, could stand his ground and not be bullied by fighters. Hence why Robinson had to dance around away from him

So-called "normal conditions" are overrated.

Dempsey-Tunney 1 took place in a downpour.
Ali-Frazier 3 was seriously hot and humid too.
Lewis-Bruno was outdoors at 1 or 2 AM on a cold October night in Cardiff.
The old-timers used to fight in rain, mud, icy ground or at desert station towns in the midday sun.
We don't have temperature and humidity records included in the record book for every fight.
It's just part of the game.
The only thing about this fight is people love Sugar Ray and they love the gallant efforts of a little guy against a big one.

 

I am just suggesting that Ray did not administer the boxing lesson to Maxim. I understand a boxing lesson to mean that one fighter fought a technically perfect fight and if Mr Average was to fight a foe, that fighter should try to emulate the boxer who handed out the lesson in all respects.

Ray was the clearly the better fighter. (Well i havent seen the early rounds for ages, but i am willing to assume that he dominated based on recent viewings of round 7-13, highlights of the fight and accounts). Although i will say that if rounds 7-13 only were considered, it would be a pretty close fight. The problem is, as you acknowledged he fought the wrong style. Certainly for the conditions, but maybe anyway.

Someone hit the nail on the head when they said he was trying to be too flashy. And he tried to sit down on every single punch almost, with lots of lateral movement. This is not what you do when you are exhausted (heat or no heat). Ray's guard was low, which meant that he had to stay at range. I presume he did that because he was worried taht Maxim would lay into him at close range. Obviously Maxims blows had more power and effect on ray than what is thought.

Anyway, my point is that Unlike ray with his 1920s style low guard, Maxim fought in a conservative defensive firts high guard. Almost the perfect fight from a strategic point of view. My only criticisms were that his elbows tended to chicken wing a bit, which did leave his body a bit open and he probably didnt really seem to cut the ring down enough but that was all down to Ray's great movement and speed. The thing is though that Maxim did exactly what you would tell any mr Average fighter to do, and this is why he was the one giving the boxing lesson. The lesson is that a tight defence will overcome a flashy offence. I dont think anyone doubts that or it is too controversial. I dont think many people here actually learned the lesson though.

I wouldnt be surprised if Ray did though. There was certainly no repeat venture into the light heavyweight arena, and you would think that there would have been enough money on hand to make this attractive, if Ray thought it was the heat and only the heat that costed him the fight.

 

Could it be Ray was tiring/slowly collapsing under the heat, so instead of easing off he upped his workrate and effort to try and get rid of Maxim, therefore increasing the effects on himself?

Just a theory.

 

He held too high a pace to start with. His performance in this fight is quite overrated all things considered. If Roy Jones or Ali had faltered under similar conditions people would be screaming about how their technical flaws were exposed (and they would be quite correct), but when it's Robinson it's "meh, the heat just got him". If it had been Burley it would have been made into him trapping Maxim before his malnourishment before the fight suddenly kicked in.

 

Hey, at least we agree one time today. If it happens again it would make us into broken clocks, I suppose.

 

Big mistake, even for the great Sugar man. Maxim, besides being the consumate safety first type fighter, had a grade A chin that was cracked only one time, vs Curtis Shepard, and he came back in a mere few weeks to face Shepard again and gain revenge. Even in a venue with perfect temperature conditions, Ray stopping Maxim would have been out of the question...even Archie Moore, in 3 15 round fights with Maxim had to be content with decision victories.

 

For a very recent example of a winning fighter managing his energy poorly, not ad******g, and paying the price for it, look at the Lemieux-Rubio fight last night. I haven't seen any threads pop up yet that said "Lemieux wins if this were a 6 rounder". Nor have I seen anyone try to diminish what Rubio did because Marco's strategy involved waited patiently and giving the rounds up until Lemieux started gassing and leaving more openings to pick his shots.

I used to think that the conquerors of other fighters who've lost in similar fashion like Jermain Taylor (Pavlik, Froch) , Tommy Morrison (Mercer), and George Foreman (Ali) don't have near the issues getting credit for their wins like Maxim does, but this thread is probably the most credit I've ever actually seen for Joey.

 

Yeah, I think Unforgiven's post sums it up well: you always have to be ready to adapt to the conditions.

 

The result of the fight bears out your opinion, but the heat will allways be a factor in this fight won't it?

 

Yeah, it is. As I said, I think Robinson wins under normal conditions.