Cleveland Williams vs Ingemar Johansson

Only Eddie Machen and Floyd Patterson were Ring Magazine top 10 rated at the time they fought Johansson. Your numbers are off. The correct number is 2.

 

no way! each of the european champions had a rating both times ingo won the euro title. cavicchi and richardson who were both on winning runs. curent british champion erskine was also rated that month. even brian london was fringe contender in his last fight. It makes 4 at that time rated fighters.


For listons 9 rated contenders you would have included valdes who in 59' lost his ranking to charlie powel and alonzo johnson when he fought liston and therfore out of the ratings but still a name.. dejohn himself had lost his rating back in 58' to valdes but was coming off a win over unrated besmanoff by the time he met sonny so he was still a name but not actualy listed either in 59 when they met.

roy harris, machen and folly were the only "at that time rated" guys liston beat before becoming a champ.

then came patterson and ali.

lincoln, clark and rischer had not been rated for 2 years when he fought them so that leotis martin was the next rated guy liston met.

 

On the whole though, he was known for being somewhat more aggressive and at times even exciting in his earlier fights, such as against Maxim and Hurricane Jackson in addition to the Valdes rematch. Granted, the Folley draw was dull and hurt both guys reps, but his performance in the rematch was markedly worse, in which he was roundly slammed in the press for just making faces at Folley while allowing him to take round after round.

Machen did match Johnson in terms of technique, yes; but in terms of actual fighting, Johnson was much more aggressive and had a big edge in combinations and power punches. Machen was content to just stay in the same defensive mode the whole fight and just work his jab. Personally, I don't see too many rounds that you could argue Machen clearly won. I thought Johnson was a fairly clear winner, even if it was somewhat close-ish.

 

Nope, Sorry your wrong. I have the Ring Magazine ratings in my hand. Only Eddie Machen and Floyd Patterson were top 10 Ring Magazine when they fought Johansson. Erskine, Cooper, Hoff, London, Richardson, etc did not crack the rankings at the time they fought Johansson.

As for Liston,

He beat Nine Ring Magazine top 10


1954: Marty Marshall- # 7 Lightheavyweight in the world Ring Magazine
1958: Wayne Bethea - # 9 in the world Ring Magazine
1959: Mike DeJohn- # 8 in the world Ring Magazine
1960: Cleveland Williams- # 10 in the world Ring Magazine
1960: Zora Folley- # 1 in the world Ring Magazine
1960 Eddie Machen- # 3 in the world Ring Magazine
1960 Roy Harris- # 5 in the world Ring Magazine
1963 Floyd Patterson- # 1 in the world Ring Magazine
1968 Henry Clark- # 7 in the world Ring Magazine

 

yet I have magazines that prove that cavichi was rated when ingo beat him throughout 1956 when he met ingo, thats how he got rated! richardson, defending euro champ was also rated. erskine was rated in 59 in the anual ratings on account of his eforts in 58'.

Liston fought wayne bethea in 1958 when bethea had just been beaten by a faded nino valdes in his last fight. In fact bethea had been decked twice in that fight and wayne had only won only 4 of his last 9 fights at the time he faced Liston. I dont see how bethea was rated in 58'. In 1956 bethea had a rating for beating ezzard charles but he soon lost that rating when he went on to lose twice to folley in the same year. I dont think he got a rating again after that.

marshal was a light heavy.

williams never made the oficial ring anual ratings until the next decade.

I have no records of any of them but harris, machen, folly, ali, martin and patterson being rated at that time. the rated ones liston beat were not unbeaten and all had been knocked out just as impresivly by other fighters.

 

Well, your wrong. Boxrec Registar 4th edition does not Lie. Neither does monthly Ring Magazine Ratings. DeJohn and Bethea was definitely rated. Williams and Clark showed up in the monthly ratings at the time liston fought him.

 

perhaps we have different ratings? Im using individual ring magazines.

odd that bethea would hang onto a rating whilst losing so many recent fights before facing liston? he is absent from my 58' colection of magazines.

clark had beat machen I accept he could have had a rating even if he did not make the anual ring ratings.

still, I have the magazines with cavicchi rated as high as #6 in 56'. richardson rated 1960 and erskine 58-59.

 

They were not rated top 10 at the time they fought Johansson. Boxing Registrar 4th Edition indicates this.

 

forgive my ignorance, im nearly 40 years old but I dont know what "boxing registrar is". is it a hall of fame a book?

I do however have my fathers actual old dusty magazines that were availible at that time listing cavicchi, richardson and erskine rated when they each fought johansson.

 

A good summary that shows the difference in class between these two men. Yes, Williams has a punchers chance, but in reality, he's never blown out a live opponent early, while Ingo has. This is Johansson's fight to lose.

Williams is way overrated by some people, with a grand total of one win over a decent opponent (only to lose the rematch).

 

I find your over rating of Johansson absurd .. he had a weak chin, he was poorly conditioned, lacked a warrior's heart and basically any skills outside of his right hand ... to say a fighter of William's skill set , when he was the bigger, stronger, tougher, faster, harder two handed hitting guy is way off no matter how you dice the ratings .. the best Ingo should get is a pick'em .. Williams badly rocked a prime Liston .. Ingo would have crapped his pants before he would have made the ring walk against Sonny ...

 

I would say you're rating of the fighters is the one that verges on "absurd."

You praise one fighter based simply on "rocking" a guy briefly while otherwise being annihilated twice by him, and the other guy (despite his far superior career achievements) you downplay based on baseless speculation about what he "would've" done in a fight with that same opponent - (never mind the fact that Ingo and Liston tried to make a fight with each other for close to two years while Liston was the top contender, and LISTON at one point turned down a career high $125,000 to fight Ingo).

 

what use is that skill set if it dosnt make the grade at the next level? williams drew over 10 rounds with a shopworn version of the man who lasted 2minuets with johansson. ingo hit way harder than sylverster jones and ali.

henry cooper badly decked ali, so what? does that mean cooper beats ingo? mauriello badly rocked joe louis, what good did that do him?

wiliams was badly pounded by the two champions he faced. he beat a young terrel before he had made a name for himself. terrel had already lost x2 to 14-8 johnny gray and a washed out bethea who was losing to everyone with a name. terrel lost because at that time he had no form what so ever, cleveland had the edge in experience that one time...this is laughable.within a year terrel beat cleveland in the return then beat foley, machen and chuvalo - guys williams never got past.

 

So, if choklab has the original RING magazines, you say they must be wrong because you have "Boxing Registrar 4th Edition" ??


How can the original magazines be wrong ? :rofl

 

He's saying that those fighters were rated at one point but not while they fought Johansson, which is true.