Save your money on these biographies

klompton · Apr 12, 2011

he grant said: ↑

It's mean spirited because you are choosing to slam this guy, utilizing the internet as a sniper, when you do not have to. You are a true boxing historian and scholar, one of the most well researched and archived I have come across. You are in the top two or three percent in that category. You are not the market for this Ketchel book but many boxing fans and lesser historians may have much to profit by reading it since they do not have all of the Ketchel articles published in the 20th century in their database. If it is not up to your taste , so be it. I'm sure there are very few books from that time period that could be with the exception of Adam's exception series ... however to slam the guy's work like it's crap to an audience that is very likely far less researched on the topic and the proper audience than you is simply a nasty move and not needed. It sounds like sour grapes which bums me out as I have been waiting over ten years for your Greb book and feel, when reading you venting like this, that we are no closer than ever to seeing it published.
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If its mean spirited or sniping to call someone out for shoddy work on a forum then so be it. Its one mans opinion and shouldnt be taken as anything more than that. Anyone who wants to purchase the book and write their own review is more than welcome. I stand by what I said and doubt any other review by anyone even passingly acquiented with Ketchel or the other players will be positive. More p.c., maybe but its not a good a book and that will be born out in the reading.

You and I obviously have different opinions on what a book should be. Apparently you think if the reader is ill informed on the subject then the author has no obligation to educate the reader on that subject. I disagree entirely. Simply because I have read and studied Ketchel to a degree does not mean that I am somehow in a different readership and thereby demand a factual book where others shouldnt. If it were a five page article I would still want the thing to be factual. I would hope anyone else would as well.

Yes Surf the cheap shot story is repeated.

Gee I wonder if single post newbie fistsfork is actually Cezanne/ketchel/manuel...

Here is an idea Cezanne/ketchel/manuel/fistsfork why dont you post your footnotes and citations here so people can work backwards through your research and see how you drew the conclusions you drew, where you got your dialogue, etc etc. Its a simple request, one ive entertained on this forum several times just in relation to posts, and one which any author worth his salt would be able to replicate fairly quickly and easily.

klompton · Apr 12, 2011

And let me add that I know I set the bar high for my book. Its another reason Im taking my time with it. Im not in competition with anyone but myself to complete it. I intend to make it as good and comprehensive as I possibly can and in so doing Im not going to be rushed by anyones timeline.

Anyone who doubts I am working diligently on my project can see below:

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Those are shots of my proof copy I took this morning for this thread.

Since there are those who feel my criticism of this book in particular are unfair I suggest someone else review it. Clay Moyle is a fair minded individual and probably has the book. Id suggest him as a good counter balance to my often pointed views. I would be very interested in hearing his views on the chapter dealing with the Langford match considering the authors description makes it seem like Ketchel beat Langford coming and going. Surf Bat can give input on the chapter dealing with Klaus. The only source the author uses for that fight is a Grand Rapids newspaper (not date given) the article of which was written much later than the fight (not a first hand account). There is little to no mention of the outside circumstances of that fight, nor the fact that Ketchel wound up in a Wheeling hospital as a result. God forbid we print anything even remotely negative about our hero.

Surf-Bat · Apr 12, 2011

Mendoza said: ↑

I thought Papke landed a blow when Ketchel wasn't ready, hence the saying protect yourself at all times. Was this a myth?
.
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Yes, it is a myth. I haven't traced it's origins yet, but there are no primary sources to back up this "sucker punch" myth. Papke landed the crippling blow within the first minute of the first round and Ketchel never recovered. This is supported by every primary source. Both Ketchel and his manager were interviewed after the bout and admitted that "the better man won".

Had Papke landed the punch during the instructions he would have been disqualified (after Referee Jim Jeffries would have scruffed him and launched him into the upper bleachers).

Surf-Bat · Apr 12, 2011

C'mon Steve! Posting bits of that Greb book...that's like waving a spoon under a junkie's nose....:fire

MagnaNasakki · Apr 12, 2011

klompton said: ↑

If youve done your homework so well then how can you say "His upcoming fight with McVey would be his first trip out of the United States to defend his title." How pray tell can Ketchel defend the ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY EIGHT POUND championship against a guy who weighed 200+ plus pounds?? Do you still think Ketchels biceps were bigger than Jess Willards and Primo Carneras? You say youve done legwork (which I gave you credit for) but you also cobble together a shitload of anectdotal information from a variety of less than proven sources rather than try to actually get to the bottom of Ketchel's real history. You quote entire conversations between Ketchel and passing acquintances as if you were there when NOBODY was there.

Did you not post these during your "research" for this book:

"Stanley Ketchel&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp

Age – 22

Height-5’9” ½

Chest Normal-39

Chest Expanded-44

Neck-16” ½

Biceps-17” ½

Forearms-14” ½

Wrists-11’

Waist-32’

Thighs-22” ½

Fists-14” ½

Reach-70” ½

Ankles-10”

Calves-14” ½

Weight-160 lbs.

It's seems you took those Ketchel measurements very personal... I hope you didn't take it that way. I'm sorry you don't believe it and can't accept it naf2003 that's my whole point Stanley physically was huge for his 5'9" 1/2 size. that's what's so incredible and extremely rare for a middleweight. But have it your way, what you say go's. In that case I guess Harry Greb's measurements are inaccurate also. Regardless of how accurate or inaccurate the measurements are Stanley's are still bigger.

Even Boxing writer Stanley Weston had to comment about Stanley Ketchel's hands and wrists several times in some old boxing magazines and he was suprised by their size as well. Ketchel broke both of his wrists in his third fight with Joe Thomas and his bones didn't grow back right and the calcium deposit started to build which made his hands and wrists very massive they almost looked deformed. DO you recall Naf2003 seeing Ketchel in enormous pillow gloves to cover his hands, wrists. They made those special gloves not just because of his physical size, but his power was too devestating for sparring partners or opponents.

One other thing naf2003. I've been in a weight lifting gym and was an amatuer boxer myself. My boxing trainer told me once that Stanley Ketchel had the most powerful wrists he ever seen. If you still don't beleive me, give me your email and I will gladly send you a photograph of his wrists. That's better than going through the trouble to some weight lifting gym.

I have always had doubt on Greb's greatness. Way too many people have said he was a dirty fighter by eye witnesses. The reason why he has such a incredible record and beaten so many heavier men is because he cheated all the time. I favor Ketchel in this fight because he was one middleweight who was fantastic and went by the rules. Fighting very dirty would be the only way Greb could beat Ketchel. But I think Ketchel would be strong enough to make Harry pay for his cheating. If a today's referee was in the ring with Ketchel and Greb. Greb would be quickly disqualified from his sneaky tricks. I'd rather have Sugar Ray Robinson as number one middleweight. Just because he wasn't dirty. Sugar Ray, Ketchel and Marvin Hagler are my top 3.

I will show it to both of you. There is a particular picture I want to show you, but the photo is in a book. I don't want to rip the page out. As soon as I scan it I'll send it to you."

Here were some of the more informed replies, I think you will find the last one interesting:

11" wrists and 17.5 inch biceps on Ketchel?

"Those measurements are obviously out of whack.

It is doubtful any lineman in pro football, regardless of weight has 11" wrists. 17.5 inch biceps on a 5-9.5, 160 pound man would be enormous. The 14.5 inch forearm is also out of line. Even the 5 inch difference between the normal and expanded chest measurements are questionable.

The measurements listed for boxers are seldom accurate."

"I hate to burst your bubble Cezanne but your tale of the tape is out of wack. This is the tale of the tape for Ketchel published by famed referee George Siler just before Ketchels first fight with Papke:

Age 21
Height 5 foot 9 1/2
Neck 16
Chest 39 1/2
Biceps 12 1/2 relaxed
Forearms 11 7/8
Wrist 7 1/8
Waist 30 1/2
Thigh 21 3/4
Calf 13
Ankle 8 7/8
Reach 72 1/2

How does one add 5 inches to his biceps in a year or less, much less the discrepencies in ankle and wrist which shouldnt change dramatically during an adults life?

I wouldnt put too much weight in what Stan Weston said about Ketchel, IF Weston was even alive during Ketchels lifetime he would have been a baby and certainly never met the man. His opinion on Ketchels wrists is no more valid than anyone else here who has seen photos and film on the man."

"As for the bicep measurement, there is no way Ketchel's arms were greater than 14". I've seen him pose with Papke and various other fighters and he does not look noticeably thicker in the upper arm than his middleweight opponents. His arms were much thinner than Jack Johnson's 16" guns."

"To put these ridiculous measurements into perspective: The only two heavyweights who had Biceps of 17 inches or more were JESS WILLARD and PRIMO CARNERA(!) giants even by todays standards. No way does a man who is under six feet and can make 154 (what he made for the first Papke fight) have biceps of 17 inches, wrists of 11 inches (Willards were 10 inches and Primos were 9), etc. those measurements are so comical that they resemble more of a gorilla than a human, especially a human of Ketchels dimensions."

"Thats not a mistake that just exaggeration any way you slice it. An exaggeration based on the word of a man who likely wasnt born when Ketchel died (Stan Weston) as opposed to the measurements of a man who knew Ketchel and was in his camp taking the measurements himself which I listed (George Siler). Cezanne can believe whichever measurements he wishes but as an perported author of a bio on Ketchel he should be careful where he credits his sources. Cezanne sent me a private message to rebut this evidence and in so doing I questioned him about his obvious bias and how that would effect his book, his reply lays bare his motivations in wanting continue the myth of Ketchel being larger than life (literally): "Perhaps, if it is perceived to be biased, it may balance out all the negativity many others have desparaged his career life, and personal life with." I always thought a biographers job was to present and fair and balanced portait of subject warts and all. I didnt realise it was considered prudent to spread more myth and rumour as a means of bring balance to the discussion..."

I find all of those posts fascinating. Particularly the one outlining your motivations for distorting the truth.

I also find it funny that the author came on here several months ago pretending to be a fan of the book:

"
Stanley Ketchel
Bman,

A brand new Biography on Ketchel was released two months ago. The book is called Stanley Ketchel: "A Life of Triumph and Prophecy" by Manuel A. Mora. You can find it on Amazon books or Barnes & Noble. It's a great read and whole alot of information on him. In my opinion it's the best biography out there right now. I highly recommend it. I also saw a great montage on Stan on Youtube titled the same as the book."

and denied he was the author:

"The novel doesn't say anything like that whatsoever and I've read it twice already. So... you should reconsider your claim about passing it up. But if you're still gonna stick to you're decision thats just too darn bad. I'm sure other people are interested in reading it.

Besides the books success doesn't depend on you're opinion! Go ahead and pass it you're the one thats gonna miss out. "

When he now comes out as the author indeed...

Why distance himself from all of those previous posts if he didnt know his credibility was damaged in the first place? Why not just come on here as the author and advertise the book as so many have done in the past (and rightly so IMO)?

How about quoting us the telegram to Pete the Goat so we can get the entire jist of it? I actually have a nice copy of that telegram which was printed in Ring Magazine several years ago, not the excerpt which you co-opted from Antiquities of the Prize Ring that is taken out of context.

I dont think my post was mean spirited at all. I hold researchers to the same standard I hold myself which is a very high standard. In this day and age when ANYONE can get published (and unfortunately often does) I think its important to call someone on very shoddy work. I gave credit to Manuel where it was do. He has done some leg work. Not a lot but more than the Clabby book and he is very young and I would guess lacks a background in history, so the very fact that he undertook the project is impressive. BUT, that doesnt mean he should be judged by lower standard than anyone else. If he wrote a history of the Civil War and stated that the North won the first battle of Bull Run would we say "aww jee, at least he gave it the old college try." I doubt it.

The book is riddled with all of the things I have complained about above and more. Whats more maddening is that there are absolutely no citations which means when Mora does have a story or conversation that would be interesting in tracking down to ascertain validaty etc its impossible.
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Long, comprehensive, mean spirited ownage. Ouch. So its a bad book...Shouldn't need to punish the guy on here about it. Publish your own and let readers see the facts. Pummeling him on a forum is kinda harsh, mate.

That said, hard not to be convinced by the content of the wall of text I quoted. Can't wait to read your project.

klompton · Apr 12, 2011

Surf-Bat said: ↑

Yes, it is a myth. I haven't traced it's origins yet, but there are no primary sources to back up this "sucker punch" myth. Papke landed the crippling blow within the first minute of the first round and Ketchel never recovered. This is supported by every primary source. Both Ketchel and his manager were interviewed after the bout and admitted that "the better man won".

Had Papke landed the punch during the instructions he would have been disqualified (after Referee Jim Jeffries would have scruffed him and launched him into the upper bleachers).
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Ok, well let me back up here. He doesnt have the cheap shot coming during instructions. He states that Ketchel came out of his corner intending to shake hands with Papke and extended his glove only to be punched in the throat. He prefaces this by several times mentioning how Papke still has a trick up his sleeve etc. He basically combines fact with fiction in an effort to paint Papke as a guy taking advantage of Ketchel's good intentions.

There is no mention of the claims Papke made, which predate the second fight, that Ketchel cheap shotted him before the first fight (a claim I have been unable to substantiate, never the less it is an interesting claim made more interesting by the fact that it predates any of the stories sorrounding the second fight).

klompton · Apr 12, 2011

Surf-Bat said: ↑

C'mon Steve! Posting bits of that Greb book...that's like waving a spoon under a junkie's nose....:fire
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When are you coming back to the midwest to see your brother? You ought to a plan a trip to Illinois.

FistsforK · Apr 12, 2011

Okay, Klompton, now you're accusing me of being someone else. That's just silly. Reading your rants, are the real rehash. Get a grip, sir. You flatter yourself far too much.

klompton · Apr 12, 2011

How do I flatter myself? By accusing you of being Manuel? It wouldnt be the first... or second time youve posted under an assumed screen name to hide your identity:

" 12-24-2010, 09:51 PM #16
Ketchel
newbie

Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 12
vCash: 500 Re: Stanley Ketchel

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Who is Cezanne??? And my name isn't Manuel. "

Yet now Ketchel is Manuel...

And suddenly a person with NO POSTS comes on here defending his book out of the blue. Sorry, thats a little to obvious.

barrack osama · Apr 12, 2011

hey klompton greb gets his **** pushed in by les darcy, *****

Ketchel · Apr 12, 2011

barrack osama said: ↑

hey klompton greb gets his **** pushed in by les darcy, *****[/QUOT

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klompton · Apr 12, 2011

barrack osama said: ↑

hey klompton greb gets his **** pushed in by les darcy, *****
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bman100 · Apr 12, 2011

klompton said: ↑

And let me add that I know I set the bar high for my book. Its another reason Im taking my time with it. Im not in competition with anyone but myself to complete it. I intend to make it as good and comprehensive as I possibly can and in so doing Im not going to be rushed by anyones timeline.

Anyone who doubts I am working diligently on my project can see below:

This content is protected

This content is protected

This content is protected

This content is protected

This content is protected

Those are shots of my proof copy I took this morning for this thread.

Since there are those who feel my criticism of this book in particular are unfair I suggest someone else review it. Clay Moyle is a fair minded individual and probably has the book. Id suggest him as a good counter balance to my often pointed views. I would be very interested in hearing his views on the chapter dealing with the Langford match considering the authors description makes it seem like Ketchel beat Langford coming and going. Surf Bat can give input on the chapter dealing with Klaus. The only source the author uses for that fight is a Grand Rapids newspaper (not date given) the article of which was written much later than the fight (not a first hand account). There is little to no mention of the outside circumstances of that fight, nor the fact that Ketchel wound up in a Wheeling hospital as a result. God forbid we print anything even remotely negative about our hero.
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Looks like its shaping out to be a great book. nice.

I see you dropped the "...and leave a good looking corpse..." part of the title.

klompton · Apr 12, 2011

Possibly. Im sort of undecided. What do you think? Should I leave it or drop it? Which sounds better?

thistle1 · Apr 12, 2011

Klompton that looks great and by the years you've put into it, it's gotta be great, it better be... if so maybe that'll be the book that provokes film makers into a Major Motion picture on Greb.

I had about 100 boxing books, most of them resourse books and maybe 20 or so bio's, and but for a said few MOST of the bio's are just not good books - here's hoping, I'm pullen for yah anyway!

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