Could Muhammad Ali have made the Manilla fighy easier for himself ?

wasn't it hot as **** that day?

 

It was no longer possible for Muhammad to get in that kind of shape. The Foreman fight was it & the last time he was ever razor sharp in there. It happens to all the heavies given enough time. Ali had not been in razor sharp condition for awhile prior to that Foreman fight even. But the greats seem to find a way to reach back 1 time and recover everything.

A motivated Frazier is no easy match when you come in at anything less than 100%. The big factor is everyone thought Joe had deteriorated quite a bit by then. Instead, he was the guy that reached back and looked far closer to razor sharp than he had in about 5 years. It made for a great fight. But heavies cannot get in 100% form at all times and yet Ali was 11 years past the date he first won the title.

Look at Ali > Manilla physically and you see a guy a few more rungs down the ladder. But he still knew what to do to win.

 

The record books also say that Lewis-Holyfield 1 was a Draw.
The record books also say that Walcott-Louis 1 was a victory for JOE LOUIS, who clearly lost that fight. Officials make mistakes and sometimes let their biases get in the way.

Frazier deserved the decision in the second fight. He forced all the action. It was Ali who decided to play it safe, clinch and run. Frazier was a man on a mission, and he got robbed.

Ali wanted to quit in Manilla. It's well documented. He said it's the closest thing to death he ever encountered. The man had nothing left, and the mystery of whether Ali would have returned for the 15th round is one of boxing's biggest mysteries. The man was done.

And, I hate to be cruel, but Frazier said it best. "Look at him now, and look at me. Now tell me who really won those 3 fights?"

 

No, it isn't. Random testimony surfacing 15 years after the fact is perhaps enough for those sucking on Frazier's balls, but no way no how is it "good documentation". This has been done so many times on this forum, so it kind of surprises me that your kind of ignorance still persists.

A past prime Ali licked Frazier 2 out of 3 and scored the only stoppage. He clearly showed himself to be the better fighter. Hell, just think of Tyson somehow winning 2 out of 3 against Lewis after coming out of prison...

 

To be fair, Frazier never fought Norton. Or Shavers. Or Holmes. Or Lyle. and folded against Foreman in 2 and 4 rounds, respectively, rather than endure him for 8.

Frazier got his share of punches in to damage Ali, but men like Holmes, Norton, Shavers, Foreman, Lyle etc. helped. Helped quite a bit, I'd say. Starting in Kinshasa, Ali got damaged by every serious boxer he fought. Even Spinks put it on him when he was an old man. Lots of men can lay claim to assisting Frazier bludgeoning Ali into pugilistica dementia. Bigger punchers than Joe, who got in a pretty good amount of licks.

Frazier pressed the action, but was outlanded 2 to 1 in just about every round. He was also the only fighter to be heavily staggered in the fight. He lost about 8 rounds. We did a poll here on classic, and a hefty majority felt Ali did plenty. Again, he used negative tactics, but that is the referee's problem. And if he got deducted 2 points(A fair penalty, when imo 1 would have done, and should have happened) he'd have still won an SD on the official cards and won by two points on mine.

All of Ali's people say he was silent in the corner and ready to go out for the 15th; All of Fraziers people say he wanted to quit. I'll go with the people who were actually in the corner. Frazier couldn't see, he was blind, and spitting out tons of blood. He was pulled for his safety. Ali beat the crap out of him. Frazier was infinitely more done. It was looking like murder in the ring in the 14th round. Had Ali come out in the 15th(He would have) and continued to build momentum as he punished the weakened Frazier mercilessly(More likely than Muhammad Freaking Ali quitting on the stool) Joe's health might have been affected. The 14th was BAD. Pretty much a 10-8 round. Joe landed squat, and got hit in the face about 40 times.

 

Frazier himself doesnt cling to it as much as his fans do. I KNOW Joe Frazier, as he knew my Daddy. He keeps it real more than Ali haters and Frazier fans do, and he is the biggest of both by far.

 

The one who isn't broke and bitter perhaps?

 

Sure it is. I've heard about it everywhere. You give me solid proof that it isn't what really happened in Manilla, and I'll hear you out. People act like Muhammad Ali was superhuman in the ring. He wasn't.

And my basic point is that Frazier will give Ali hell any day of the week, no matter when they fought. It's a styles thing. I'm not surprised that Jake Lamotta beat Sugar Ray Robinson once; the pressuring swarmer always smothers the classic boxer and forces him to fight at a tempo he isn't used to and takes away his punching space.

 

You got this wrong. You prove that things happened, not that they didn't happen.

Nothing was said about Ali wanting to quit after the fight, no one at ringside reported such a thing. It wasn't until Willie "The Worm" Monroe came out of the woodworks 15 years later that that urban myth was created.

But I bet you belong to those who think Clay's ripped glove bought him 2-3 extra minutes against Cooper too. Or that young Clay threw his Olympic Medal in the river.

There are many complete myths about Ali that just won't go away and this is one of them.

Who here has said anything different?

 

If its heresay, its not evidence.Doesnt mean ****. Nobody is saying Ali is superhuman. He wasn't. He struggled against Frazier, and when Frazier was at his strongest, failed to beat him. Ali wasn't anywhere near ready physically, but I think he wanted that victory as much if not more than any other in his whole career, and he couldn't beat Joe that night. Maybe he never could have beat the Joe from FOTC.

That said, champions don't quit on their stools when they are inflicting SCARY punishment on their opponents. I cant think of one fight in history where it happened. Ali is perhaps the strongest willed heavyweight EVER. His resume is literally an encyclopedia of winning when the chips are down. Your telling me he's gonna give up when the chips are very much up?

No way. Tough fight? One of the toughest. But the guy thats clearly winning it and setting up to stop his opponent brutally is not gonna decide "I'm tired" and pack it in.

 

People can score fights differently, even if this particular scorecard will mean that Frazier wins rounds without landing one clean punch. But there will always be controversial opinions when it comes to scoring. It annoys me more that people buy this whole "Ali was ready to quit in Manilla" BS, just because of one very shitty documentary.

 

Could you endure Foreman for 8 rounds? That guy could punch. And to be fair, Frazier never quit against Foreman. Not once. Both fights were stopped. Foreman's power was brutal and his style was all wrong for Joe, who bobbed and weaved right into Foreman's clubbing uppercuts.

Ali was already slurring and sounding punch drunk before he got to Leon Spinks. It was after Manilla that things took that sad turn for him. The guy was pissing blood. I think it's safe to say that Frazier hit Ali more than any other fighter. Getting inside and countering with those left hooks to the body and head gave Ali fits. And I'm glad you admitted that ali used negative tactics in the second fight. Without those tactics, he wouldn't have won. Frazier would have been free to work the body and bang him silly like he did in TFOC and TIM.

And it amuses me how many people think Americans landed on the moon in the 1960s, but yet the US Flag was waving in the wind. How in the crap can that happen on the moon where there's no gravity? But oddly enough, people believe that crap just because they were told it. Same thing with Muhammad Ali's "victory" over Frazier in 1974. People believe what they want.

I thought Clay threw his medal into the river? In his movie "The Greatest" he clearly threw it in the river. And Ali played himself in the film. Why would he create a myth about himself?

 

It wasn't that bad. The stuff about the lead up to the fight was decent. During, though, it goes of the rails. Thats not journalism; Thats rank bias. They almost complete ignore the butchering Joe got in the 13th and 14th, and actually CRITICIZE Futch for his brave and human decision.

Thats honestly what got me the most. I've heard the rumor about the quittage before, and I ignore it cause I've heard differently from people who were there. But dissing Eddie Futch was uncalled for. Dude knew his ****. Best trainer ever. Family friend.

I havent watched the rest.

 

You seen the Vitali Klitzsckho/Chris Bryd fight? It happened there...