Could Muhammad Ali have made the Manilla fighy easier for himself ?

'Casue it sounded good and built up the legend. When asked about it he admitted he just misplaced it somewhere. The river thing never happened.

 

Torn shoulder. Different.

And granted I had headgear on, and he was over 40, but I've been well over 200 rounds with George Foreman. I know how hard he hit. Thats why Im saying he contributed to Ali's condition. He made the man **** blood too. He never quit, but he was well disposed of. Ali wasn't, and took a hammering to his kidneys. Guarantee that fight messed him up.

 

Interesting. Thanks for that info. :good

 

I think it's ****. It makes for a very good story, but on the expense of reality. A couple of examples:

1. They stated early on that Frazier supported Ali's stand on Vietnam. In fact he's always been critical of Ali's refusal to go to war and also consistently referred to Ali as Clay, already in the 60's. He clearly didn't respect Ali's "anti-establishement" stand/persona and showed so very clearly. But the doc. wants us to believe that Joe was a comrade in arms.

2. They make a big deal out of Ali's holding in the rematch and how Perez allowed it, but don't even mention how Perez cut the second round short when Joe was in big trouble.

(Of course, there are many other things about the rivalry that they don't mention. For example how Frazier held a speech in front dignitaries from his home state in which he made fun of Ali's conduct during FOTC. A black man mocking another black man to get laughs from whites that probably wouldn't have hesitated to lynch him if he looked the wrong way at their daughters as a young, poor boy - that's pretty Uncle Tom to me)

 

Joe's a good man. He was always nice to me and my father. But I know he's no saint. And sometimes, he REALLY tries to paint himself that way.

 

That wasn't meant as against Joe, but against the documentary.

And Ali did do and say some very shitty things to Joe. It's just that I see it as a much more mutual rivalry than it normally is painted as, even though Ali certainly was more the more vocal (and vulgar) one. It would be interesting to see a really good documentary about it.

How did you know Joe?

 

My Dad was a minor guy in the Philadelphia boxing scene who was in with Eddie Futch and got to assist around the gym after his boxing career went absolutely nowhere. I learned to box mostly out in NY, but when my Dad came back around and offered me the chance to come down to Philly with him in the summers, with Eddie Futch around of all people, I jumped at the chance.

Got to know everybody around the Philly boxing scene for close to a decade through my Dad. Joe included.

Meldrick Taylor was my favorite, though we werent much more than acquaintances. What happened to him made me physically ill. Not even kidding.

 

You referring to the Chavez fight? That would probably make me kind of bitter.

 

And even after Ali beat Bonavena. At that time Ali had had well publicised rows with Patterson, Terrell and Bonavena about them calling him Clay, so it can absolutely not have been lost on Frazier.

In essence, Frazier persisted with Clay (which Ali clearly found derogatory) long before Ali labelled him an Oncle Tom.

 

Itll never happen. Ali is too polarizing a figure, and 100+ documentaries have been done on his career.

I do agree with what has been said. Ali took it up a notch, but he ALWAYS went further than his opponent. The rivalry was very two-sided. They were not buddies, and Joe had many a laugh and slung many an insult at Ali unprovoked. They were the two top dogs in the heavyweight class, and had to contend with the controversy of Ali never losing his title in the ring. I dont think it was possible to keep animosity out of it.

Ask yourself if you could like the guy who stood for quite the opposite of what you did, and whose very unbeaten record threatened the legitimacy of the title you busted your ass to win. You get him in the ring, but before you can ride off into the sunset, he goes and beats the guy who kicked your ass, then blinds you and tees off till your trainer and friend says no mas when you finally got to chance to silence him and you trained like a demon to do it.

Joe hates Ali for what he said, but I promise you some of that hate is for the reasons above. Ali's existence and career cuts into Joe's pride. He literally one-upped him everywhere and took some shine off of what was Joe's crowning moment before FOTC. I'd hate him too.

 

Now there we have the storyline for a good documentary.:good

That's what I love about this rivalry, that they were both so similar and dissimilar. Both were very proud men who took great satisfaction at what they achieved and was not going to let any other man steal their moment in the sun. Both were absolutely fierce competitors.

But for Ali, the road to glory had to be on his terms and he looked down on those who he thought made their success on others' terms. Joe was the opposite. He didn't believe in any roads except the straight one, was traditional in the sense that you had to pay your dues and do your work to get where you wanted. Mouthing off and showboating was for phonies.

This is my very personal take on it, at least. Ali could never forgive that a man that he respected in a way but also viewed as essentially inferior took his title in the ring, and Joe could never forgive that the world loved what he saw as a phoney loudmouth more than him.